USPSA clubs are revolting!

[Bosshoss]

What do we have to do to get ACC in on this? I enjoy shooting USPSA but would honestly just rather have actually fun outlaw matches.

How many "outlaw" matches have you actually shot?
What makes a "outlaw" match actually more fun than a USPSA match?

 

[Bosshoss]

and on top of it all, raising membership dues.. my (sometimes erratic) thought have got me thinking it's to money in USPSA's hands for the potential legal battles that may be coming in the future.
ive been a USPSA member for 28 years

You have been a USPSA member for 28 years so you have probably only seen one dues increase in those years. Everything is higher like primers are triple what they were just 3 years ago and powder is double. Personally the dues increase only amounts to less than a couple bucks a match difference spread over the year. If you only shoot 2 or 3 USPSA/SCSA a year then it will be more.
After 28 years you must enjoy shooting USPSA/SCSA and I hope a $25 dues increase isn't the thing that makes you not renew.
I used to be a match director in Northern Indiana(Deer Creek) and shot many matches at clubs up there so our paths may have crossed back in day.

 

[crewchief888]

How many "outlaw" matches have you actually shot?
What makes a "outlaw" match actually more fun than a USPSA match?

i thought all matches are suppose to be fun.. thats always been my approach to any match.
any "stress" at a match is brought on by myself

 

[crewchief888]

You have been a USPSA member for 28 years so you have probably only seen one dues increase in those years. Everything is higher like primers are triple what they were just 3 years ago and powder is double. Personally the dues increase only amounts to less than a couple bucks a match difference spread over the year. If you only shoot 2 or 3 USPSA/SCSA a year then it will be more.
After 28 years you must enjoy shooting USPSA/SCSA and I hope a $25 dues increase isn't the thing that makes you not renew.
I used to be a match director in Northern Indiana(Deer Creek) and shot many matches at clubs up there so our paths may have crossed back in day.

i havnt shot a USPSA match in a few years. i dont run & gun as well as i used to. i mainly SCSA, RCSA, & rimfire falling steel

 

[cedartop]

How many "outlaw" matches have you actually shot?
What makes a "outlaw" match actually more fun than a USPSA match?

I shoot both but usually prefer the sanctioned stuff. I like the more formalized scoring and rules system and knowing exactly what you are getting. (Usually)

 

[Bosshoss]

Was curious as to how similar USPSA & IDPA organizations are and how much, if any, does one affect the other.

As other have stated they are different but similar.
USPSA is a NON-profit org.
IDPA is a for profit company.
USPSA doesn't require membership(ever) to shoot level one matches. I know shooters that have been shooting over 20 years that never joined. BUT USPSA still gets money from the clubs for every match that shooter shoots. Clubs pay activity fees for every shooter at a match. Membership get a shooter access to level 2 matches and the classification system so you can track your improvements and ranking with other shooters, like your buddies.

IDPA I've only shot a few times and I'm far from a expert but I have built quite a few Revolvers for IDPA shooters and know the rules are strange(trying to be nice here).
IDPA requires you join the org. after a few matches but clubs have found work arounds as others have stated.
IDPA doesn't get any fees from the matches so if shooters don't join they(IDPA) don't make any money which is not good for a for profit company.
Just my opinion here but I don't really understand the thought process of clubs that hold IDPA matches and make profit from said matches that helps support that club but don't support the national organization by letting people shoot without joining the national org. as per the orgs rules.
Just my and again I'm not by any means a expert on IDPA.

 

[JCSR]

When this happens to a multi-time champion there is a problem. Employee and BOD corruption was rampant and Ben called them out. Others that have spoken out have been given the same treatment.

 

[Gunmetalgray]

As other have stated they are different but similar.
USPSA is a NON-profit org.
IDPA is a for profit company.
USPSA doesn't require membership(ever) to shoot level one matches. I know shooters that have been shooting over 20 years that never joined. BUT USPSA still gets money from the clubs for every match that shooter shoots. Clubs pay activity fees for every shooter at a match. Membership get a shooter access to level 2 matches and the classification system so you can track your improvements and ranking with other shooters, like your buddies.

IDPA I've only shot a few times and I'm far from a expert but I have built quite a few Revolvers for IDPA shooters and know the rules are strange(trying to be nice here).
IDPA requires you join the org. after a few matches but clubs have found work arounds as others have stated.
IDPA doesn't get any fees from the matches so if shooters don't join they(IDPA) don't make any money which is not good for a for profit company.
Just my opinion here but I don't really understand the thought process of clubs that hold IDPA matches and make profit from said matches that helps support that club but don't support the national organization by letting people shoot without joining the national org. as per the orgs rules.
Just my and again I'm not by any means a expert on IDPA.

Our club pays an IDPA affiliation fee, (at least up to this point) so we get to use the logo, and those who care get the satisfaction of participation in an official IDPA (lev 1) match. Club by-laws don't require membership in any org to participate in any club matches.

The club exists for its members and many members shoot MANY different disiplines and don't want to have to pay to join multiple organizations in order to shoot in organized matches, for mostly fun.

I see IDPA is trophy-only, which they say helps avoid that $ worry.



The IDPA rules are really not that 'strange' when considering they are based on self-defense tactics. I.e. using 'cover' or 'slicing the pie' when engaging targets around a corner, vs jumping out in the open and shooting in any order. Just different. Both can be fun.

 

[Bosshoss]

When this happens to a multi-time champion there is a problem. Employee and BOD corruption was rampant and Ben called them out. Others that have spoken out have been given the same treatment.

View attachment 322424

There are probably over 100 National champions over the years and none of them have been banned except Ben. Your right there was a problem but sounds like it was Ben.
Ben wasn't special as far as a member goes(he was one of the best shooters that has played the game) but no more important that anyone else. His vote counted the same as everyone else.
Corruption should be dealt with in the court system.
All you posted was a letter to Ben that showed he was banned from USPSA it isn't proof of any wrong doing by USPSA or Ben for that matter.
This just screams of FAFO.
I have said it before IMO the board has problems and hopefully they will get resolved but killing everything and not just the problem seems counterproductive.
These problems will not be solved on YouTube or Instagram.

 

[Bosshoss]

The IDPA rules are really not that 'strange' when considering they are based on self-defense tactics. I.e. using 'cover' or 'slicing the pie' when engaging targets around a corner, vs jumping out in the open and shooting in any order. Just different. Both can be fun.

Wasn't implying about their rules so much. They have fixed a lot of the problems by using fault lines instead of subjective RO's.
My biggest hang up is equipment I want to shoot a Revolver but mine has a 5" barrel and IDPA says no has to be a shorter barrel. BUT it is OK to shoot a full size 1911 or almost any autoloader with a barrel longer than 4.25 or better yet a PCC with a magazine that could double as a tripod. I should go to a match to see the PCC shooters hide their gun under the vest everyone is supposed to use. Lot's of other equipment rules that make little since.
I wish they would allow 8 shot revolvers in with the 1911's or whatever division if they didn't want them in with revolvers.
Don't get me wrong USPSA has stupid rules also and subjective rules that I wish they would change.
But hey IDPA and USPSA are supposed to rag on each other so nothing major. Just having fun here.

 

[Gunmetalgray]

Wasn't implying about their rules so much. They have fixed a lot of the problems by using fault lines instead of subjective RO's.
My biggest hang up is equipment I want to shoot a Revolver but mine has a 5" barrel and IDPA says no has to be a shorter barrel. BUT it is OK to shoot a full size 1911 or almost any autoloader with a barrel longer than 4.25 or better yet a PCC with a magazine that could double as a tripod. I should go to a match to see the PCC shooters hide their gun under the vest everyone is supposed to use. Lot's of other equipment rules that make little since.
I wish they would allow 8 shot revolvers in with the 1911's or whatever division if they didn't want them in with revolvers.
Don't get me wrong USPSA has stupid rules also and subjective rules that I wish they would change.
But hey IDPA and USPSA are supposed to rag on each other so nothing major. Just having fun here.

Yep, all good fun here. The fault lines were a big improvement, I'll definitely take the trade off of being more time consuming at match set up. And simplifying the order of engagement by doing away with tactical sequence was a big plus too. And we have a name for PCC shooters in IDPA, cheaters! Again, all in fun but they get special treatment, ha.

IDPA still hasn't got the round count rules right yet, IMO, including revolvers, which 7 or 8 round revolvers can be used, but they can only load it to 6. Why, right. And production pistol now gets 15 rounds but production pistol with a red dot is still limited to 10 rounds, why??

 

[JCSR]

There are probably over 100 National champions over the years and none of them have been banned except Ben. Your right there was a problem but sounds like it was Ben.
Ben wasn't special as far as a member goes(he was one of the best shooters that has played the game) but no more important that anyone else. His vote counted the same as everyone else.
Corruption should be dealt with in the court system.
All you posted was a letter to Ben that showed he was banned from USPSA it isn't proof of any wrong doing by USPSA or Ben for that matter.
This just screams of FAFO.
I have said it before IMO the board has problems and hopefully they will get resolved but killing everything and not just the problem seems counterproductive.
These problems will not be solved on YouTube or Instagram.

It's way more than Ben. If you want more info (I don't think you do however) it's all here.

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[Bosshoss]

It's way more than Ben. If you want more info (I don't think you do however) it's all here.

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I welcome more info but not from USPSA's version of the View from people with a agenda.
Show me the facts.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yep, all good fun here. The fault lines were a big improvement, I'll definitely take the trade off of being more time consuming at match set up. And simplifying the order of engagement by doing away with tactical sequence was a big plus too. And we have a name for PCC shooters in IDPA, cheaters! Again, all in fun but they get special treatment, ha.

IDPA still hasn't got the round count rules right yet, IMO, including revolvers, which 7 or 8 round revolvers can be used, but they can only load it to 6. Why, right. And production pistol now gets 15 rounds but production pistol with a red dot is still limited to 10 rounds, why??

Meh. We're just choosing to practice our carbine skills. Its only cheating if we are competing against other non carbine shooters.

And yeah, Besides the weird rules of IDPA, their equipment rules are often heavily influenced by what Wilson Combat is producing.

For years I've said they need to rename it WCIDPA.
(and for those that dont know, the board is comprised of mainly WC execs and owners)

Year x:
us: We want a PCC division.
BOD: No. Its silly. You cant have one. This is about concealed handgun defense.

Year x+1:
Wilson combat: We are pleased to announce we are now producing PCCs! Buy one!
BOD: Oh look, we decided to listen to you the members and create a PCC division. You're welcome.


They also changed the BUG rules when they released their own BUG sized gun. And as I recall, in the process forced several guys shooting BUG with other guns out of the division because the changes put forth for the new WC BUG made their guns incompatible with the BUG division.

I like the sport, I'm just not fond of how they change the rules based on the gun company they are tied to.

 

[JCSR]

I welcome more info but not from USPSA's version of the View from people with a agenda.
Show me the facts.

Internal e-mails are in the link I gave you. Now that they are being watched they can't help themselves. For years the "good ol boy's " ran things their way. But once again I don't think you'll even look for them.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Internal e-mails are in the link I gave you. Now that they are being watched they can't help themselves. For years the "good ol boy's " ran things their way. But once again I don't think you'll even look for them.

Thats how you stay in power.
Step 1 do what you want
Step 2 a bunch of members find out and dont like it and threaten to vote you out.
step 3 eject those who threaten your power
Step 4 get re-elected by the docile members that are left.

Works in .gov too. They call those dicktaterships. At least I think thats what it was called in another thread. LOL

 

[Gunmetalgray]

Meh. We're just choosing to practice our carbine skills. Its only cheating if we are competing against other non carbine shooters.

As a couple of the PCC regulars on the squad I shoot with tell me, "I'm just jealous"!
Could be! I would just miss my pistol. Hey if IDPA would allow participants to shoot multiple guns, like steel challenge, I could be persuaded. Prob take a little nudge tho, like a bird fart in my general direction.

 

[Cameramonkey]

As a couple of the PCC regulars on the squad I shoot with tell me, "I'm just jealous"!
Could be! I would just miss my pistol. Hey if IDPA would allow participants to shoot multiple guns, like steel challenge, I could be persuaded. Prob take a little nudge tho, like a bird fart in my general direction.

IDPA does. Just not all clubs do due to how popular the matches have become.

I know at Atlanta they used to, then when they started filling the matches to 101% they stopped because it would take too long. You used to be able to pay for a 2nd gun/slot and shoot twice. But it just got too busy. Nobody wanted to shoot stand around until 3PM because a bunch of guys waned to take multiple turns on each stage.

 

[JCSR]

Thats how you stay in power.
Step 1 do what you want
Step 2 a bunch of members find out and dont like it and threaten to vote you out.
step 3 eject those who threaten your power
Step 4 get re-elected by the docile members that are left.

Works in .gov too. They call those dicktaterships. At least I think thats what it was called in another thread. LOL

With the recent lawsuits I think a lot of it is coming to a halt. Everything from sexual harassment to tax evasion is coming to light. It's all there if one cares to see it.

 

[longbeard]

Yep, all good fun here. The fault lines were a big improvement, I'll definitely take the trade off of being more time consuming at match set up. And simplifying the order of engagement by doing away with tactical sequence was a big plus too. And we have a name for PCC shooters in IDPA, cheaters! Again, all in fun but they get special treatment, ha.

IDPA still hasn't got the round count rules right yet, IMO, including revolvers, which 7 or 8 round revolvers can be used, but they can only load it to 6. Why, right. And production pistol now gets 15 rounds but production pistol with a red dot is still limited to 10 rounds, why??

I wish IDPA would drop the cover garment and tactical BS and just make it a time-plus game. Most of the detractions from playing the game are the rules surrounding self-defense play.