Turning "low tier" AR into "good enough"

[Ruffnek]

As many of you know,I can't stand a gun snob.Some people,not necessarily INGOers,have looked my AR over and loved it until they found out that it is a DPMS.It gets annoying,so I explain to them that I have upgraded it and plan to continue doing so.I thought I would start a thread to ask for the input of fellow INGOers(yes,this can be a mistake) on what upgrades you can do to make a "low tier" or "cheap-o" AR into one that is reliable/ergonomic enough for whatever use you want to put it to.

My upgrades so far:
-Buffer Technologies AR15 extractor upgrade AR-15/M16 EXTRACTOR UPGRADE KIT | Brownells
-JP Enterprises enhanced reliability spring kit,4lb JPS4.0 Enhanced Reliability Spring Kit : AR-15 ENHANCED RELIABILITY SPRING KITS | Brownells
-KNS Precision anti rotational pins GEN. 2 MOD. 2 NON-ROTATING PIN SET | Brownells
-Tactical latch AR-15/M16 TACTICAL LATCH | Brownells
-Extended pins AR-15/M16 Extended P/T Pin Set, No Logo : AR-15/M16/AR-STYLE .308 EXTENDED PIVOT/TAKEDOWN PINS | Brownells
-Magpul BAD lever AR-15/M16 B.A.D. LEVER? | Brownells
Future upgrades:
NiBO coated full auto bcg
Tuned buffer spring
Ambi safety

Who has something to add?

 

[jd4320t]

I'll add that you don't need most of that stuff. If you plan to do a lot to it you should just order a $50 PSA blem lower that's on sale right now and build a new rifle.

 

[Ruffnek]

True but I'm talking situations like "my parents/girlfriend just bought me this (insert brand) and I don't want to sell it but I want it to be a good rifle" or the guy who wants a rifle but has a limited budget.Some people need a complete rifle on a limited budget but will upgrade to better parts later.

 

[wsenefeld]

Being that it's still a DPMS, it'll stay lower tier unless you upgrade your lpk and barrel. QC is what separates a lot of companies. DPMS batch tests while DD tests on an individual basis. This is acceptable to the end user because of the cost savings.

If you make it through 1000 round without a hitch, no need to replace. DPMS or any other company that uses batch testing wouldn't be something I'd count my life on with a new in box rifle.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Does it go bang when you pull the trigger? Does it hit what you're aiming at? If yes to both I'd tell the haters to f$%^ off

 

[wsenefeld]

Does a Daewoo start when you turn the key? Does it get you to your destination? If it's ever done both it must be just as good as any other car out there.

 

[horsehaulin]

Does a Daewoo start when you turn the key? Does it get you to your destination? If it's ever done both it must be just as good as any other car out there.

That's a bad analogy, LOL! Daewoo brake jobs are more than a Mercedez. I used to tow those things from repair shops when I operated LD flatbed.

As to the OP, most of those above are reliability upgrades, or ease of operation. All of them will make you feel more comfortable, but getting a new barrel and free float hand guard from a trusted and reliable company will put you miles ahead. Yes these items are costly, but everything else behind those parts just support the operation leading up to primer ignition.

 

[Disposable Heart]

I'm not an AR expert, but I've run a lot of them, classes and such, and found out a lot of garbage that people hang from their guns is that: garbage.

Turning a cheapo AR into a good one involves hitting the points that the "majors" hit that the "minors" skimp on:
Bolt and carrier: replace the likely all 8620 bolt head with a Carpenter 158 steel one. Add a black o-ring and replace the extractor spring. Ensure the gas key is staked well (and don't worry if it's MIM or milled, there's plenty of MIM gas keys that run just fine). Coatings are cool, they make them "feel" smoother and clean easier, but chrome lining in the carrier and you are done (no need for a chrome plated outside of the carrier or bolt head).

Barrel: 1:9 twist 4140 steel unchromed is okay for a plinker, but replace it after you wear it out practicing with a 4150 1:7 from a reputable manufacturer if you want a "war gun".

Ensure you have M4 feedramps (not necessary, but nice to have and will make it up to "spec") and you are done in terms of what they have that you don't. Realistically, splitting hairs, but not really if this is going to be a serious use, post-apocalypse rifle where parts aren't falling from the sky.

Some folks put doo-dads like the BAD lever and such to make it "Tier 1". A lot of those parts can be more detriment to your shooting than benefit, so train with what you have and THEN see if you want to change things out. People also cheap out, "Naw, I don't need to replace the barrel or bolt, it's fine, plus a barrel is like $200 plus install" but add garbage to their rifle to make it "Tier 1"... That's akin to putting a spoiler on a Tercel and calling it a Supra. Save the money you would put into stupid pins, detents and silly levers into buying quality REPLACEMENT parts, not doo-dads. ARs are just like 1911s in some instances: The more garbage people hang off it, the more they think it helps, when they just need to shoot it and find out what they MIGHT need. Also, "custom" low end ARs are just like "custom" low end 1911s: A set of punisher stocks, putting a bushing compensator and adding a magazine doesn't make it custom, it makes it cheap looking... Same with an AR, a DPMS Sportical with a cheap NCStar red dot and a Magpul magazine doesn't make it "Custom".

Most of your small parts and recievers all come from core foundries and manufacturers, there isn't a ton of variation. Your upper and lower on the cheapo model is likely the same that comes on a high en model, so don't sweat it. If desired (or necessary due to low QC), replace your fire control group with a quality one from Geiselle or if you can't swing it, ALG's "milspec" Nickle Boron coated one for $80 is a sweet unit. KNS pins are cool, but if you are having problems with the pins walking, they are a band aid for a more serious problem (out of spec pins, out of spec lower, worn springs).

Don't screw with the buffer unless you need to. Too heavy and it won't run right. If you HAVE to replace something, replace it with a "h" buffer and leave it alone. No need to fix something that doesn't need fixing.

What the **** is a "tuned buffer spring? lol Sounds like a gimmick.

 

[45fan]

Never really understood the hate for DPMS. As far as I have seen, they arent a bad rifle. The only reason to knock any of the AR rifles out there would be if their receivers were of sub-par quality with the average. So what if another company sells 40+extra widgets and an air gauged barrel with flip out egg beater extensions and a revolving disco ball?

If you are happy with it, and it does what you ask, isnt that all that is required? The best part about the platform is the mod-ability to just about anyone's taste. You can go from Vietnam era M16 to full retard mall ninja with nothing more than a phone, a Midway catalog and a credit card.

As long as it does its job, forget the other guys, and go shoot. Chances are if you spent the time shooting that they spend putting other peoples guns down, you will be out shooting them in short order (if you arent already)

 

[Disposable Heart]

Never really understood the hate for DPMS. As far as I have seen, they arent a bad rifle. The only reason to knock any of the AR rifles out there would be if their receivers were of sub-par quality with the average. So what if another company sells 40+extra widgets and an air gauged barrel with flip out egg beater extensions and a revolving disco ball?

If you are happy with it, and it does what you ask, isnt that all that is required? The best part about the platform is the mod-ability to just about anyone's taste. You can go from Vietnam era M16 to full retard mall ninja with nothing more than a phone, a Midway catalog and a credit card.

As long as it does its job, forget the other guys, and go shoot. Chances are if you spent the time shooting that they spend putting other peoples guns down, you will be out shooting them in short order (if you arent already)

The problem with DPMS is that they aren't even close to a "Vietnam era M16" in terms of quality. The materials used, the attention to details (such as staking), etc.. aren't even close. The difference is in there and if you put enough rounds down range, you'll notice (like I did) that cracked bolt heads, jamming guns, poorly made parts, etc... aren't a substitute for buying well once and leaving it be. For a plinker, DPMS or similar are fine. Bushmaster is okay. Whatever you run, make sure it runs and leave it be. But understand that some of your critical parts are value priced for a reason. I shoot... ALOT. I've worn out DPMS style 4140 steel barrels before. For the price of 1 solid barrel, I've worn through 3 cheap barrels (and at close to similar cost). Would I rather pay $600 on barrels, or $200 on barrels? Or should I skip all of that and buy extended takedown pins?

Sure, the doo-dads they add on now, like rails and such, are a by product of what people perceive as THEIR needs when they are someone ELSE'S needs. A good light is a requirement for a HD AR, how am I supposed to mount it? Some people go full retard with their ARs with lasers, special grips, crazy compensators, etc... But sometimes, specific requirements generate specific needs. Problem arises is when they buy cheap on their accessories for a vital need as well. They wan't PERCIEVED value, not ACTUAL value. When they pull up the Midway catalog and their credit card, they end up going with what's cheap, not replacing what made their gun a value priced arm in the first place.

Also, there is a surge in manufacturers that make solid ARs with great parts for the same price as the cheapo DPMS. One can build a Palmetto with all the proper steeled and specced parts for the same price as a Sportical.

 

[Ruffnek]

Now this is where I pictured this thread going.Great advice.Like I said,this is a thread for people who are either on a limited "here and there" budget or have a reason not to get rid of their original rifle.For me,the BAD lever and extended takedown pins and tactical charging handle are all luxuries that I personally chose.Things like the pins,extractor o-ring,and enhanced reliability spring kit are examples of my philosophy of "overbuild and worry less" just like the full auto bcg.

 

[Ruffnek]

What the **** is a "tuned buffer spring? lol Sounds like a gimmick.

AR-15/M16/308 AR TUNED BUFFER SPRING | Brownells

 

[wsenefeld]

Or pay less for a better spring...
Enhanced Spring, Recoil Buffer, Action, Carbine | Damage Industries

 

[42769vette]

If you want to upgrade, buy a trigger and a barrel.

My thoughts are who cares what they think. Buy enough ammo, and pratice to where when they say "Oh its a DPMS" you can grab a mag and say "grab your DD and out shoot me"

 

[avboiler11]

If you want to upgrade, buy a trigger and a barrel.

My thoughts are who cares what they think. Buy enough ammo, and pratice to where when they say "Oh its a DPMS" you can grab a mag and say "grab your DD and out shoot me"

This.

Worry less about the rollmark, and more about driving the damn thing.

Get a decent trigger (I like the SSA-E, the G2S is a cheaper alternative to the SSA), perhaps a better stock if you prefer (I like the ACS-L), maybe an optic or a red dot, and a *bunch* of ammo. And shoot it, often and a lot.

You might consider getting a quality MPI bolt or perhaps even a complete BCG in the event you have an issue with your original bolt/BCG...but I wouldn't replace the thing until it fails, and when it does you should tell us the round count and the type of failure experienced.

 

[42769vette]

This.

Worry less about the rollmark, and more about driving the damn thing.

Get a decent trigger (I like the SSA-E, the G2S is a cheaper alternative to the SSA), perhaps a better stock if you prefer (I like the ACS-L), maybe an optic or a red dot, and a *bunch* of ammo. And shoot it, often and a lot.

You might consider getting a quality MPI bolt or perhaps even a complete BCG in the event you have an issue with your original bolt/BCG...but I wouldn't replace the thing until it fails, and when it does you should tell us the round count and the type of failure experienced.

I actually just got my first G2S trigger a few days ago. Its definitely not as good as my National match, but the right its in has a different purpose, and its good enough for what I paid.

 

[M67]

DPMS barrels, for the most part, shoot well and most people won't ever come close to wearing one out. Even though their BCG isn't milspec in terms of matierials or being full auto, most owners won't come close to the breaking point of the bolt and even though their staking can be hit or miss, most rifles won't see enough action for the gas key to come close to working loose.

For what it's worth, if I had to trust a Freedom Group AR (DPMS, Bushmaster, or Remington), I trust DPMS the most.

If you want to upgrade your DPMS, change the lower to a better roll mark, being that your rifle was made under Remington rule means the quality isn't there (statement made jokingly, some purple intended).

What separates a lot of ARs in terms of cost and quality is how certain parts are made, who made them, how detailed their QC is (batch vs individual), how long they've been in business (some companies being new their equipment still isn't paid for), and their turn down rate. Name and prestige does play a factor as well.

The NiB BCG isn't neccessary, it's just a "cool factor". Lots of good phosphate BCGs for $150 or less (Rainier, DD, BCM)

Barrels.....sky's the limit. You can get some melonite barrels for $150 (MAS Defense), being melonite they should last a hell of a lot longer that a chrome line but it depends how well the melonite treatment is done. Or you could go upwards of $500 on some Noveske barrels, $220 region for a Rainier select barrel.

I'll add that you don't need most of that stuff. If you plan to do a lot to it you should just order a $50 PSA blem lower that's on sale right now and build a new rifle.

You and those freaking PSAs........

 

[churchmouse]

The problem with DPMS is that they aren't even close to a "Vietnam era M16" in terms of quality. The materials used, the attention to details (such as staking), etc.. aren't even close. The difference is in there and if you put enough rounds down range, you'll notice (like I did) that cracked bolt heads, jamming guns, poorly made parts, etc... aren't a substitute for buying well once and leaving it be. For a plinker, DPMS or similar are fine. Bushmaster is okay. Whatever you run, make sure it runs and leave it be. But understand that some of your critical parts are value priced for a reason. I shoot... ALOT. I've worn out DPMS style 4140 steel barrels before. For the price of 1 solid barrel, I've worn through 3 cheap barrels (and at close to similar cost). Would I rather pay $600 on barrels, or $200 on barrels? Or should I skip all of that and buy extended takedown pins?

Sure, the doo-dads they add on now, like rails and such, are a by product of what people perceive as THEIR needs when they are someone ELSE'S needs. A good light is a requirement for a HD AR, how am I supposed to mount it? Some people go full retard with their ARs with lasers, special grips, crazy compensators, etc... But sometimes, specific requirements generate specific needs. Problem arises is when they buy cheap on their accessories for a vital need as well. They wan't PERCIEVED value, not ACTUAL value. When they pull up the Midway catalog and their credit card, they end up going with what's cheap, not replacing what made their gun a value priced arm in the first place.

Also, there is a surge in manufacturers that make solid ARs with great parts for the same price as the cheapo DPMS. One can build a Palmetto with all the proper steeled and specced parts for the same price as a Sportical.

This is good advice and a true statement as to the actions of so many shooters. Tripping over $5 bills to pick up quarters.
I had to sell off most of my guns in 2002 when serious medical issue come to visit. When I was able to start replacing them I found a new DPMS that by all outward appearances was a nice gun. The reality of it was not so. What a turd. I found a used S&W as a project gun and stripped most of the critical parts from it....put into the DPMS and we had a reliable rifle. I replaced all the removed bits on the S&W with "Good" parts and it was a very nice gun.
Lesson learned. Entry level stuff is cheap for a reason. No knock as we all have to start somewhere but save a few more dollars and just get the good pieces.

 

[Ruffnek]

Or pay less for a better spring...
Enhanced Spring, Recoil Buffer, Action, Carbine | Damage Industries

Thanks for the tip.And it's Yeager approved!

 

[45fan]

I will admit, my experience with DPMS products has been limited, but the ones that I have fired did the job asked of them from their owners. I never realized that they were sub-par in quality as compared to the mil-spec standards.

Worst case, as churchmouse did, you start with the lower end unit, and replace with higher quality parts as the need becomes realized. I lucked out, and fell into a deal on an Armalite, evidently it wasnt selling because it had green furniture instead of the more popular black (at least that was the explanation that the manager gave me).

While I admit that I do not put thousands of rounds though it on a yearly basis, I have run it through its paces, and not had issue with it in the least. Honestly, I would say it is of equal of better quality than the Colts that I am fairly familiar with, at least from what I have observed in the years that I have had with my rifle.

Just as a question, because I am in no way an expert in AR manufactures and their relative quality, how does the Armalite fair in todays world of AR rifles, and what would be considered a good entry level priced platform for someone looking for one that did not have the cash to drop on a Noveske or other higher end AR platform?