Traffic stop and tow?

[quiggly]

Okay I get the call from my son. Uhhh I have a problem. Never like hearing that.

He drives an older car that isn't the nicest in the world but he says his car has been impounded and towed? Better than accident and people hurt but this just pisses me off.

He was pulled over by a LEO. He doesn't exactly remember what the officer said but something to do with his license plate. Any way the officer gets asks for license and registration. He didn't have his wallet with him so that is a strike, but he gives him the registration.

Officer then comes back to the window and asks for proof of insurance. My son hands him a proof of insurance card. Officer goes back to the car then comes up and tells him that his insurance had expired. My son has know idea if it had or not so he takes the officers word for it.

The officer then says that he cannot let him drive the vehicle and proceeds to have it towed.... and he gives my son a ride home.

Funny thing is, that the insurance was not expired, but my son handed him a card that was outdated.

He was not ticketed with anything but now we have to pay the tow company and impound fees which I am sure will be in the 150$ range.

Is this legal? All he had to do was call the 800 number on the card and see if it was expired.

Tomorrow I take a Sharpie and highlight all of the expiration dates on all of my insurance cards. I don't think that having an expired card warrants impounding a vehicle does it?

Any ideas of what we can do? I plan on going to the LEO office tomorrow and having a conversation about this with them but I was looking for some actual real information before going in.

 

[45calibre]

i think it is. since the cop thought the insurance was expired the car was not allowed ''legally'' on a public road

 

[4sarge]

I've been retired for 10 years so my answer may not be current but in Indiana I'd say no. I'm guilty of not replacing my outdated Ins Card with the new one. I only have it for exchanging info in case of an accident. An insurance card did not used to be required under Indiana Law - Metro 40 or FPDShooter, Harley96 or someone else - has the law changed and can you site the IC

Thanks

 

[Metro 40]

Okay I get the call from my son. Uhhh I have a problem. Never like hearing that.

He drives an older car that isn't the nicest in the world but he says his car has been impounded and towed? Better than accident and people hurt but this just pisses me off.

He was pulled over by a LEO. He doesn't exactly remember what the officer said but something to do with his license plate. Any way the officer gets asks for license and registration. He didn't have his wallet with him so that is a strike, but he gives him the registration.

Officer then comes back to the window and asks for proof of insurance. My son hands him a proof of insurance card. Officer goes back to the car then comes up and tells him that his insurance had expired. My son has know idea if it had or not so he takes the officers word for it.

The officer then says that he cannot let him drive the vehicle and proceeds to have it towed.... and he gives my son a ride home.

Funny thing is, that the insurance was not expired, but my son handed him a card that was outdated.

He was not ticketed with anything but now we have to pay the tow company and impound fees which I am sure will be in the 150$ range.

Is this legal? All he had to do was call the 800 number on the card and see if it was expired.

Tomorrow I take a Sharpie and highlight all of the expiration dates on all of my insurance cards. I don't think that having an expired card warrants impounding a vehicle does it?

Any ideas of what we can do? I plan on going to the LEO office tomorrow and having a conversation about this with them but I was looking for some actual real information before going in.

It depends. Your information is kinda spotty. What exactly was wrong with the license plate? Did it belong to another vehicle, or was the plate expired?

IC 9-18-2-43
Impounding vehicles; improper certificates of registration and plates
Sec. 43. (a) Notwithstanding any law to the contrary but except as provided in subsection (b), a law enforcement officer authorized to enforce motor vehicle laws who discovers a vehicle required to be registered under this article that does not have the proper certificate of registration or license plate:
(1) shall take the vehicle into the officer's custody; and
(2) may cause the vehicle to be taken to and stored in a suitable place until:
(A) the legal owner of the vehicle can be found; or
(B) the proper certificate of registration and license plates have been procured.
(b) Except as provided in IC 9-21-21-7(b), a law enforcement officer who discovers a vehicle in violation of the registration provisions of this article has discretion in the impoundment of any of the following:
(1) Perishable commodities.
(2) Livestock.

If your son could not present a valid driver's license, then why would the officer allow him to continue to operate the vehicle? How could the officer even determine who your son was, without a valid photo ID?

IC 9-24-13-3
Possession and display of licenses and permits
Sec. 3. An individual holding a permit or license issued under this article must have the permit or license in the individual's immediate possession when driving or operating a motor vehicle. The permittee or licensee shall display the license or permit upon demand of a court or a police officer authorized by law to enforce motor vehicle rules.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.12.


IC 9-22-1-5
Discovery of possession by person other than vehicle owner
Sec. 5. When an officer discovers a vehicle in the possession of a person other than the person who owns the vehicle and the person cannot establish the right to possession of the vehicle, the vehicle shall be taken to and stored in a suitable place.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.10.

I doubt that it is an insurance issue, but if it was towed because of this, then the tow is legal. A driver has to have proof of insurance, and an expired insurance card does not provide this proof.

IC 9-25-4-1
Persons, generally, who must meet minimum standards; violation; suspension of license or vehicle registration
Sec. 1. (a) This section does not apply to an electric personal assistive mobility device.
(b) A person may not:
(1) register a vehicle; or
(2) operate a vehicle on a public highway;
in Indiana if financial responsibility is not in effect with respect to the motor vehicle under section 4 of this chapter.
(c) A person who violates this section is subject to the suspension of the person's current driving license or vehicle registration, or both, under this article.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.13. Amended by P.L.105-1991, SEC.1; P.L.59-1994, SEC.3; P.L.143-2002, SEC.8.

I'd say the officer cut your son a break by not writing him a ticket for operating a vehicle with no license in possession, not writing him a ticket for the original license plate violation, and giving him a ride home. Imagine the hell that would be raised if the officer let your son go and he got into an accident after being allowed to operate without a license. The again, without proper ID, how is the officer to know that the kid IS your son and not some mope who stole your son's car?

Assuming that the registration and plate for the car were valid, and the insurance was current, this all could have been avoided by your son showing some responsibility. All it takes is a valid license, registration and proof of insurance, as required by law, to avoid problems like this.

By the way, at least in Marion county, if a car is towed in error, you can usually contact the officer who did the tow and ask that the wrecker service be contacted to waive the impound fee. Not sure about this in other counties, though.

 

[quiggly]

Thanks for the info.

Just so you know, there was nothing that I know of that was wrong with the plates on the vehicle. It is just old and beat up.

There is also valid insurance on the vehicle and the card is in the vehicle, he just handed him one that was expired. My son didn't realize this and just thought the officer checked and for some reason the insurance had been dropped. Didn't think to look for the other card.

In regards to not having his license with him, it was my impression that for this to be a violation, that he is not able to provide the license, and that he doesn't show up in the BMV registry. I will see if I can find that.

My son is always respectful with police officers and other adults so I can't imagine that this was a problem. All the officer would have had to do was call and we would have been glad to provide the facts that he was insured.

I will talk with them tomorrow and see if we can't at least get the fees waved.

Thanks again for the pointers to the legislation.

 

[colt45er]

The first question is what was wrong with the plates...expired?

If the stop in the first place was not valid, nothing after is.

For example (not proud of this) a good friend of mine got pulled over for a hit and run and happend to be under the influence. He recieved a DUI but it ended up not sticking because he was not involved in the hit and run, therefore had no reason to be stopped. Kinda BS but you get the point.

Second, in Indiana you are required to have a phone ID if you are over 18. You have 24 hours to produce your license after a traffic stop if you do not have your license. That said, the LEO had no way of knowing if he was a licensed driver without a license. He also had no way to verify he was the owner of the vehicle.

As for the insurance. It is illegal to drive without. LEO should have probably verified that it was expired.

On the bright side he could have been sent to court with a hefty fine, plus had his license suspended on the spot. Of course it would all be worked out eventually,..but hey

Sorry to hear for your troubles

 

[PsYcHo SqUiRrEl]

I'm sure the officer ran the license to make sure it is valid. As long as the license came back valid and the registration also came back valid, I don't see why the vehicle was towed.
Even though it is a violation not to have a license in possesion while operating a vehicle, in my county you have 10 days to produce a valid license to the clerk's office and the citation will be dropped. Same goes for expired registration and other equipment violations.
I'm not sure about other counties, but in my county the prosecutor even sent out nasty grams to all the departments for writing no insurance citations when the vehicle in question was not involved in an accident. According to the prosecutor, the only time you are required to supply proof of insurance was when involved in an accident. Hence the SR21 form that is to be completed and sent to the BMV. About the only time I even write a no insurance citation anymore is if the driver in question advises me that he/she doesn't have insurance.

 

[sloughfoot]

I have made this type of traffic stop many times. In every case, since they changed the law about car insurance from a misdemeanor to an infraction, I have never towed the car unless there was something else going on.

It is real simple to write the tickets for no drivers license in possession and no proof of insurance. Tell the arrested individual to bring in license and proof that there was insurance on the date of the stop and show it to the judge on the court date on the tickets. Charges are then dropped or pursued by the Prosecutor as appropriate.

LEO's don't waste time calling insurance companies to verify insurance. In Indiana, IDACS check verifies that the individual is licensed so the vehicle can be driven away by the person, but I still want him to show his license to the judge. Of course, I am certain that he is, who he says he is, when I make this decision. If there is doubt, the car gets towed to protect the owner's interest in the vehicle.

I'm not going to say anything about his PC for the stop, because I am not clear why he was stopped from your post.

Towing the car for no license in possession and no proof of insurance seems excessive to me, but is entirely within the Officer's discretion.

 

[mospeada]

I'm sure the officer ran the license to make sure it is valid. As long as the license came back valid and the registration also came back valid, I don't see why the vehicle was towed.
Even though it is a violation not to have a license in possesion while operating a vehicle, in my county you have 10 days to produce a valid license to the clerk's office and the citation will be dropped. Same goes for expired registration and other equipment violations.
I'm not sure about other counties, but in my county the prosecutor even sent out nasty grams to all the departments for writing no insurance citations when the vehicle in question was not involved in an accident. According to the prosecutor, the only time you are required to supply proof of insurance was when involved in an accident. Hence the SR21 form that is to be completed and sent to the BMV. About the only time I even write a no insurance citation anymore is if the driver in question advises me that he/she doesn't have insurance.

I wouldn't hold up the Monroe County prosecutor's office as a shining example of righteousness, or justice, or honesty, or sobriety, or.... you get the picture.

Anyway, I just hope that your boy can come away with a valuable lesson. Always have your license on you, don't leave a plate hanging, a tail light broken or any other reason for the LEO's to pull you over, and make certain you know where license and registration are in the vehicle you are driving. If so, he has an uneventful day.

 

[PsYcHo SqUiRrEl]

I wouldn't hold up the Monroe County prosecutor's office as a shining example of righteousness, or justice, or honesty, or sobriety, or.... you get the picture.

Nor would I! I was just advising how things are usually done in the Republic of Monroe. But this being a public forum, I won't go into details/stories. Anyone that lives in Monroe Co. or has delt with the justice system in this county knows

 

[quiggly]

I'm sure the officer ran the license to make sure it is valid. As long as the license came back valid and the registration also came back valid, I don't see why the vehicle was towed.

This is the only law I can find that relates to this. Metro40 gave me the pointer. If ticketed this would be a Class C infraction. Not sure what the penalty for that is but the fact is that the officer did not ticket him for this.
Can they do that after the fact? Send the ticket in the mail kinda thing?
IC 9-24-13-3
Possession and display of licenses and permits
Sec. 3. An individual holding a permit or license issued under this article must have the permit or license in the individual's immediate possession when driving or operating a motor vehicle. The permittee or licensee shall display the license or permit upon demand of a court or a police officer authorized by law to enforce motor vehicle rules.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.12.

Even though it is a violation not to have a license in possesion while operating a vehicle, in my county you have 10 days to produce a valid license to the clerk's office and the citation will be dropped.

I can't find any references to this. Do you have some pointers?

According to the prosecutor, the only time you are required to supply proof of insurance was when involved in an accident. Hence the SR21 form that is to be completed and sent to the BMV. About the only time I even write a no insurance citation anymore is if the driver in question advises me that he/she doesn't have insurance.

I am looking for any laws that refer to this. The only thing that I can find is that if he didn't have insurance laws. He does have insurance. He just had shown a card that was expired.

Anyway I will talk with them tomorrow and see if we can at least be allowed to pick up the vehicle without paying the fees. I will be happy with that even though it is a huge pain. Pain like this will be worth it for the lesson. Pain of several hundreds of dollars is something else.

 

[Metro 40]

I'd like to add that I would not personally tow a vehicle for lack of proof of insurance. I've never towed one specifically for that reason. I don't even ask for it anymore, since it was changed from a misdemeanor to an infraction. I figure it's a BMV issue, and they can do the enforcement.

I'm merely pointing out that state statute allows the impounding of a vehicle for many different reasons. If I can verify a person's identity, I will let them drive the car if their license info is on file, even if they don't have it in possession. We don't always have a lot of time to make phone calls and attempt to verify identity, however, and the burden is with the driver to prove his/her identity. This is even codified in state statute, to the point that someone who refuses to ID themselves when stopped for an infraction or ordinance violation can be arrested and taken to jail.

There are 92 counties, and at least 92 different ways of dealing with vehicle impound rules. I'm sure that whatever department towed the car will explain the reason to you if you call them. Hope you get the info you need!

 

[PsYcHo SqUiRrEl]

I'd like to add that I would not personally tow a vehicle for lack of proof of insurance. I've never towed one specifically for that reason. I don't even ask for it anymore, since it was changed from a misdemeanor to an infraction. I figure it's a BMV issue, and they can do the enforcement.

Same here. It would take more such as false registration, suspended license, etc. before I'd tow. That's just officer discretion.

There are 92 counties, and at least 92 different ways of dealing with vehicle impound rules. I'm sure that whatever department towed the car will explain the reason to you if you call them. Hope you get the info you need!

Exactly, nobody reads the law the same.

 

[quiggly]

Thanks for all the replies.

Once I got the full story, net net is that the officer did exactly what I would have expected and he actually was cutting the kid a break.

Don't really think its appropriate to go into the details on a forum but lets just say that the officer did an exemplary job.

Thanks to all of you for allowing you to be my sounding board.

I am going to close this thread as there needs to be no more input at this time.

 

[Fenway]

How were you able to close this... only mods should have this option.

 

[Bill of Rights]

How were you able to close this... only mods should have this option.

It doesn't look officially closed to me, but I was thinking maybe he asked one of them (backchannel) to do so?

Blessings,
B

 

[pmpmstrb]

It was locked earlier and I'm assuming that Fenway unlocked it.