The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight

[mrjarrell]

Jim Higgenbotham takes the shoot for centre of mass school of thought to task. Yeah, it may be easier to hit, but are you going to actually take the assailant out of the fight? Maybe you will, but there's a good chance they may stay in the fight. This is a good article that makes some important points. Might want to makes us take a look at our strategies and practice.

From Guns America

Surviving a gunfight isn't what you think it is. Don’t let conventional wisdom get you killed. A well place round to "center mass" in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after "center mass" hits, and some even win it. If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker. One, two or even several well placed "center mass" shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.

There is a self styled self defense “expert” under every rock, and perhaps two behind every bush, these days. If you have a pet theory on what might work on the street then you can probably find a champion for that idea who actually charges people to teach them that skill. But few of the experts out there have ever been in gunfights, and even fewer have studied real gunfights to see how things really work out when the bullets really fly for blood.
There are more misconceptions out there than I can cover in one article but the one that probably gets to me the most, even over all the caliber wars that rage interminably in the print and cyber media, is the nearly universal acceptance that shooting a miscreant “center mass” with ________(fill in your favorite make, model and caliber) shooting _________ (fill in your favorite ammunition) hyper speed truck killer is practically guaranteed to get the job done.
Having studied in this field from a number of decades, I have run into plenty of cases where bullets did not do what folks would have assumed. And I have now collected enough of these that I think that rather than being anomalies, they are actually closer to the norm. Center mass hits in a gunfight do not in most cases end the fight. Erroneous assumptions can get you killed!
There is a well known video in training circles in which a Highway Patrol officer shoots an armed subject 5 times “center mass” (this is not my assessment but the statement of his immediate supervisors which are interviewed on the full version of the hour long tape) with his 4” .357 Magnum revolver firing hollow point ammunition. All 5 hits failed to do the job and the subject was able to fire one round which struck the officer in the armpit. That round wondered around in the chest cavity and found his heart. The officer unfortunately died at the scene and his attacker is alive today.
In a class I conduct under the title "Fire For Effect" I start out by showing a video of standoff in which a hostage taker is fired on by police with .223 rifles and .40 caliber handguns. Throughout the whole disturbing sequence, which lasts about 10 seconds, the bad guy is hit multiple times in the torso with both rifle and pistol rounds. You can see him place his non-firing hand to his chest, clearly a lung is hit. However he is able to shoot his hostage 3 times, not rapidly. The hostage, a trim female, is active throughout the scene but later died from her wounds. In this case both the attacker and the victim had “center mass” hits that had no immediate effect.
I have accumulated confirmed incidents in which people have been shot “center mass” up to 55 times with 9mm JHP ammunition (the subject was hit 106 times, but 55 of those hits were ruled by the coroner to be each lethal in and of themselves) before he went down. During training at the FBI Academy we were told of a case in which agents shot a bank robber 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buckshot – he survived! These are not rare cases. The happen quite often.
If a gunfight ever comes your way, your attacker may fall to a hit to the liver and he may not. He may fall to two or three hits to the kidneys, intestines or spleen, but he may not. He will certainly be in bad health. He likely will not survive, but what he does for the next several seconds to a few minutes is not guaranteed because you hit him "center mass."

Read the rest of the article at the source. It makes for an interesting take on Dynamic Response. It's not as in depth as I'd like, but it gives you something to think about. There's a short video at the source. Not much to it.

 

[Indy317]

Good stuff. Here is another article, a couple of years old, that talks about gun fighting. The one thing that got me about this article, the guy said that those who died (good guys and bad guys) were killed out in the open. This person recommends getting cover first and foremost, then prepare to fight.

Realistic gunfight training - Law Enforcement News

 

[jblomenberg16]

Excellent read.

My take aways can best be summed up by this quote:


And remember “anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting a whole lot!” (but please stop when the threat is cancelled, we don’t advocate “finishing shots”).

Seems like one needs to be ready to put multiple rounds on target, and continue to fire until the threat is nuetralized. We've heard that in some other discussions before, and think it still holds true.

 

[mrjarrell]

What got me was the stories of guys taking multiple rounds to centre of mass and not going down. If I have to eject my mag and reload, I'm thinking the guy's a zombie or has a big red S on him somewhere.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

What got me was the stories of guys taking multiple rounds to centre of mass and not going down. If I have to eject my mag and reload, I'm thinking the guy's a zombie or has a big red S on him somewhere.

I used to know the sheriff of Newton county and he told me of a perp that came down from Chitcago and had to be shot 20 some-odd times with issued 9mm's .

 

[finity]

'High center torso' is still the best (easy to hit & lots of vital organs) place to shoot at. If a HCT shot won't instantly stop them, as the authors experience indicates, then an appendage shot definitely won't either. IF (& it's a big IF) you can actually use the sights then a CNS shot would be best for an immediate stop.

I don't think the point of the article is to get people to change their tactics in regard to shot placement. I think the point is to get people to understand that fatal shots aren't ALWAYS immediately fatal & to be prepared for that. That goes back to the concept of "get off the X". If you stand there, draw & fire the BG still has several seconds to several minutes before they are incapacitated. MOVE. The goal isn't to kill the BG but to not get killed or injured yourself.

 

[jblomenberg16]

'High center torso' is still the best (easy to hit & lots of vital organs) place to shoot at. If a HCT shot won't instantly stop them, as the authors experience indicates, then an appendage shot definitely won't either. IF (& it's a big IF) you can actually use the sights then a CNS shot would be best for an immediate stop.

I don't think the point of the article is to get people to change their tactics in regard to shot placement. I think the point is to get people to understand that fatal shots aren't ALWAYS immediately fatal & to be prepared for that. That goes back to the concept of "get off the X". If you stand there, draw & fire the BG still has several seconds to several minutes before they are incapacitated. MOVE. The goal isn't to kill the BG but to not get killed or injured yourself.

+1.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Apparently we seem to forget the "El Presidente" type drill:

Two in the chest, one in the head.

We can discuss all we want about putting steel on target, it's not so much as what you shoot as much as WHERE you put it. Sure, we can discuss or argue about the relative benefits of multiple rounds in the chest or torso, but a round squarely in the noggin usually causes a complete and total shutdown.

Like one of my academy instructors put it: "Kill the head and the body will die." Of course, we are not shooting to kill, we are shooting to stop.

However, if someone is shooting at you, they need to be shut off immediately. We all know that bullets can cause damage to the body, even lethal damage. That is why firearms are called "lethal weapons."

 

[Srtsi4wd]

Apparently we seem to forget the "El Presidente" type drill:

Two in the chest, one in the head.

I thought that was the "Mozambique drill" ?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2Il86-38A"]YouTube - Jim Zubiena in SLOW MOTION[/ame]

or this

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdISTE1JY4M&feature=related"]YouTube - Collateral 1vs2[/ame]

El presidente drill

[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8478196212140473683&ei=l5KZS7ulL4TqrALnu6DcDA&q=el+presidente+drill&hl=en"]El Pres drill / Paul Markel[/ame]#

 

[caddywhompus]

Great thread here. I'd like to check out some of these case studies where cover was/wasn't used. As far as I'm concerned, if the baddy is still moving and I still have ammo in the gun, I'm still shooting 'cuz he ain't "stopped" yet.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
As far as I'm concerned, if the baddy is still moving and I still have ammo in the gun, I'm still shooting 'cuz he ain't "stopped" yet.

That is a key point. Shoot 'em to the ground.

 

[Bigum1969]

That is a key point. Shoot 'em to the ground.

 

[HICKMAN]

For all the "center mass" and where to shoot discussion, until you've been in a situation, you don't know where you'll shoot. We can all read, discuss and talk about it, but under the stress of fire, nobody really knows what they will do until it happens.

How many times do we see people in Steel or USPSA matches forget all about the front sight... and that's not with someone potentially shooting back!

How many gunfights have we read about were cops and bad guys unload on each other... and no one gets hit?

One of the things I really like about shooting the various matches is it helps one focus on the draw, proper grips, good sight alignment and thinking and shooting on the move. Force on Force training is also very good because it puts you in various scenarios that we may someday face.

good post mrjarrell, great food for thought.

 

[Coach]

For all the "center mass" and where to shoot discussion, until you've been in a situation, you don't know where you'll shoot. We can all read, discuss and talk about it, but under the stress of fire, nobody really knows what they will do until it happens.

How many times do we see people in Steel or USPSA matches forget all about the front sight... and that's not with someone potentially shooting back!

How many gunfights have we read about were cops and bad guys unload on each other... and no one gets hit?

One of the things I really like about shooting the various matches is it helps one focus on the draw, proper grips, good sight alignment and thinking and shooting on the move. Force on Force training is also very good because it puts you in various scenarios that we may someday face.

good post mrjarrell, great food for thought.

Good Points Hickman. I did notice in the Force on Force class in Feb that I shot bad guys low on two different drills. I know it was sighted fire but in the heat of the moment I ended up shooting two feet lower than I had planned to do. I have made notes and have learned from that training. It was valuable training.

Shooting them to the ground is a good idea, but remember that down does not necessarily translate to out of the fight. Down and out is better than down.

 

[Jack Ryan]

"Two in the chest, one in the head and any where else I can hit them until I don't feel threatened by them."

 

[Jack Ryan]

Good Points Hickman. I did notice in the Force on Force class in Feb that I shot bad guys low on two different drills. I know it was sighted fire but in the heat of the moment I ended up shooting two feet lower than I had planned to do. I have made notes and have learned from that training. It was valuable training.

Shooting them to the ground is a good idea, but remember that down does not necessarily translate to out of the fight. Down and out is better than down.

Shooting them when they are down is an excellant opportunity to defeat body armour. I sure don't want to let them shoot me because they are laying down.

 

[Cain71]

"Two in the chest, one in the head and any where else I can hit them until I don't feel threatened by them."

AMEN

 

[360]

Or you could just sit tight and wait on one of the many INGO snipers to take the BG out.

Does anyone walk over to the downed BG and unload a mag into his head to make sure he is dead?

Then do you take his gun if he has one?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Good read, but just some personal thoughts to add. None of the stated reports, said anything about the subjects possibly being under the influence of drugs or alcohol. This alone changes the situation. Now I know it's not gun related. However I have seen actual footage of subjects being jacked up on drugs, being sprayed with pepper spray and having the **** beat out of them numerous times. Still staying in the fight! Where when we go sprayed, we where in no shape to come with a strong counter attack. Also adrenaline plays a vital role in how a subjects body reacts.
There are cases during Vietnam of doped up Vietcong, being shot with a full mag of .45's and dropping at the GI's feet.

Also there is no guarantee of a one, or two, or even three shot stop with a pistol. A lung shot is not a guaranteed, they are no longer a threat shot. Or even a heart shot. They may have enough adrenaline to keep them alive, to get one, or even two rounds off. Or again numb from drugs. Giving their brain enough stimulus to fire back. Still though shooting center mass, which to me is the sternum upward! Gives you a better chance of hitting a vital organ. Such as heart, lungs, etc. If two shots does not do it, then your better off going brain hunting.

Also staying stationary for too long makes you an easier target. If you have to fire multiple times, need to fire and maneuver. Makes it harder for the subject to take aim at you. You could go for a leg shot, it may drop them but still they be able to fire back. I know it's hard in close quarters. If you can though it's best to find cover, and concealment. That way you can fire, without the threat of being hit yourself. Every situation is different, all you can do is train, train, and train. Not just your shooting skills, but mentaly. That's my personal view!

 

[jeremy]

Rule number 1 of Gunfighting with a Pistol...
A Pistol is only good to fight your way to a Rifle...