State Fusion Centers a waste of time... AND?

[CathyInBlue]

Intelligence effort named citizens, not terrorists

We've been saying that from the quarters of the Ron Paul supporters and gun rights advocates for a long time.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Fusion Centers will always be a waste of resources - until the next major terror push emanates from agents inside the country inside of outside (where they belong). Then the narrative will be: "We HAD this information (buried somewhere in a report that nobody in charge gave much credence because it came from another agency) why didn't we ACT on it?" Recall the artificial barriers erected between the FBI and CIA, who each had information that might have averted 9/11 IF they had been allowed to share it.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I hate that Homeland Security was created and exported to the States. On many levels it is idiotic bureaucracy taken to the nth degree and a haven for power-grabbers and power-seekers. As is typical in a bureaucracy, the legislators and management want to be able to show "results" for their money, so paper-shuffling and butt-covering, and general snoopiness abound - and that's just within the various agencies - while butt-kissers scurry around looking for something spectacular to justify their jobs and earn them a promotion.

On the other hand, there needs to be a mechanism to share information of possible interest without stimulating the natural rivalries inherent in disparate bureaucracies. This is generally accomplished through personal contacts among cooperating agencies, therefore, it makes a certain amount of sense to form a cooperative where the various "players" know the folks they're sharing "intelligence" with. While there are almost always some A-holes in the mix, there also tend to be some very dedicated analysts who take their jobs seriously and know the difference between a potential terrorist and a loud-mouthed malcontent - most of the time.

I'd like to see the Fusion Centers stay (and their work remain CLASSIFIED - NOFORN) and most of the rest of the Department revert back to where they were before this bruhaha started, ESPECIALLY put FEMA back where it was so it can get out from under the Prison Camp miasma of paranoia that DHS engenders.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The Fusion centers aren't just about terrorism. They also have gang databases, organized retail theft ring organizations, etc. As an example, Mexican nationals were stealing huge amounts of baby formula powder in multiple states, including Indiana. The typically illegal thieves would then funnel it back to Mexico where it was sold on the black market. Without a fusion center, its tough to coordinate and end multiple jurisdiction crimes like that. You may have a simple theft arrest, but with info from the Fusion center you crack into a much bigger issue.

 

[IndyDave1776]

This is all well and good. What happens (regarding us) when dissent becomes illegal?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is all well and good. What happens (regarding us) when dissent becomes illegal?

The same argument can be used against anything. What will the FBI do when dissent becomes illegal? What will the Border Patrol do when dissent becomes illegal? What will the Army do when dissent becomes illegal? What will the courts do when dissent becomes illegal?

Really, if the situation deteriorates to the point where dissent is illegal, Fusion centers are real low on your list of worries.

 

[rambone]

Fusion centers are a great way to Federalize local police and get them used to blurring the lines of Federal jurisdiction. If your fingerprints are online with the local police, Fusion Centers will make sure that your data ends up in a Federal biometric database. Its all about centralizing power and creating a 21st century police state.

 

[rambone]

Support your local Stasi.


Homeland Security 'Fusion Centers' Target Fishing, Marriage Counseling, At Huge Cost

Beyond being useless, some reports are downright embarrassing.

One that never saw the light of day wrote how a pair of men were fishing in a suspicious fashion on a reservoir that spanned the U.S.-Mexico border. Another worried that the notorious Mongols Motorcycle Club -- recently busted in a major federal operation -- had printed pamphlets for members advising them to be courteous to police in traffic stops, to properly care for their vehicles, and to designate a sober driver. About 40 of the reports the committee examined were blocked because of potential infringement on liberties.

One report was focused on a document that was entitled “Ten Book Recommendations for Every Muslim.” Another DHS intelligence officer filed an item on a U.S. citizen who, the report said "was appearing at a Muslim organization to deliver a day-long motivational talk and a lecture on positive parenting."

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Support your local Stasi.


Homeland Security 'Fusion Centers' Target Fishing, Marriage Counseling, At Huge Cost

Yell "The Sky Is Falling!" all the time.

 

[rambone]

More About Fusion Centers | American Civil Liberties Union

1. Ambiguous Lines of Authority. In a multi-jurisdictional environment it is unclear what rules apply, and which agency is ultimately responsible for the activities of the fusion center participants.
2. Private Sector Participation. Some fusion centers incorporate private-sector corporations into the intelligence process, potentially undermining privacy laws designed to protect the privacy of innocent Americans, and increasing the risk of a data breach.
3. Military Participation.Some fusion centers include military personnel in law enforcement activities in troubling ways.
4. Data Mining. Federal fusion center guidelines encourage wholesale data collection and data manipulation processes that threaten privacy.
5. Excessive Secrecy. Fusion centers are characterized by excessive secrecy, which limits public oversight, impairs their ability to acquire essential information and impedes their ability to fulfill their stated mission, bringing their ultimate value into doubt.

 

[rambone]

Yell "The Sky Is Falling!" all the time.

Does it make you uncomfortable when your security blanket is challenged?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Does it make you uncomfortable when your security blanket is challenged?

Does it give you a warm fuzzy to see alarums and scarums in every corner? Does it make you feel better about yourself to try to convince everyone else to be as paranoid as you are? Do you still beat your . . .?

 

[Classic]

I think the entire Homeland Security and TSA are and expensive albatross around our clective necks that seems to be focused on finding something wrong with the average citizen and I don't think they have protected us in the bargain. The very title sounds like something out of 1940s Germany. See something say something indeed.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

The Fusion centers aren't just about terrorism. They also have gang databases, organized retail theft ring organizations, etc. As an example, Mexican nationals were stealing huge amounts of baby formula powder in multiple states, including Indiana. The typically illegal thieves would then funnel it back to Mexico where it was sold on the black market. Without a fusion center, its tough to coordinate and end multiple jurisdiction crimes like that. You may have a simple theft arrest, but with info from the Fusion center you crack into a much bigger issue.

I think the entire Homeland Security and TSA are and expensive albatross around our clective necks that seems to be focused on finding something wrong with the average citizen and I don't think they have protected us in the bargain. The very title sounds like something out of 1940s Germany. See something say something indeed.

Not to sound nasty or condescending, but it looks like BehindBlueIs has some experience with a Fusion Center and what it does. I've worked in Emergency Operations Centers in conjunction with "fusion-center-like" task forces covering such things as racial demonstrations and counter-terror operations post-9/11. Have you done either of these things, or are you going by what you read, primarily by folks who have a political or jurisdictional axe to grind?

 

[rambone]

Does it give you a warm fuzzy to see alarums and scarums in every corner? Does it make you feel better about yourself to try to convince everyone else to be as paranoid as you are?

Most people reading this thread would be asking the same thing of the government spies, datamining Americans all over the country without probable cause.

Why don't you ask them when the sky is going to fall?
Why don't you ask them if their paranoia has any limits?

I'm just a taxpayer who's had enough of this expensive, intrusive illusion of security. The sun will continue to rise and set without Federal Fusion Centers, the Patriot Act, and the TSA. The paranoid ones are so afraid of muslims that they willingly give up all their rights.

Do you still beat your . . .?

 

[rambone]

I've worked in Emergency Operations Centers in conjunction with "fusion-center-like" task forces covering such things as racial demonstrations and counter-terror operations post-9/11.

I had a strong feeling.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I had a strong feeling.

You must have me on "Ignore" like I have you. My background is no secret. I was a military helicopter pilot for 39 years and I worked for 13 years in Emergency Management at the county level and as a member of the FEMA US&R Task Force IN-1. I've worked on local, state, and national disasters and worked with local, state, and federal representatives and agencies on all of them. That doesn't make me an advocate for more government, or even as much "government" as we already have, but I don't see jackbooted thugs under every rug and around every corner and I have enough general knowledge of things you're always screaming about to be aware of the pitfalls inherent in governmental agencies without being hysterical about it. What do you have besides Alex Jones and Info Wars?

 

[rambone]

You must have me on "Ignore" like I have you.

Don't you like telling me that everything is A-OK?

What do you have besides Alex Jones and Info Wars?

Just writing checks to the IRS to pay for fusion centers, task forces, wars, and retirees.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Not to sound nasty or condescending, but it looks like BehindBlueIs has some experience with a Fusion Center and what it does. I've worked in Emergency Operations Centers in conjunction with "fusion-center-like" task forces covering such things as racial demonstrations and counter-terror operations post-9/11. Have you done either of these things, or are you going by what you read, primarily by folks who have a political or jurisdictional axe to grind?

Experience notwithstanding, when in world history has any government possessed any tool of control which was not eventually abused if not abused immediately upon its availability?

 

[Classic]

Not to sound nasty or condescending, but it looks like BehindBlueIs has some experience with a Fusion Center and what it does. I've worked in Emergency Operations Centers in conjunction with "fusion-center-like" task forces covering such things as racial demonstrations and counter-terror operations post-9/11. Have you done either of these things, or are you going by what you read, primarily by folks who have a political or jurisdictional axe to grind?

First, I appreciate and respect your military service.

Second, I didn't realize this thread was only for those with personal experience in a Fusion Center or I wouldn't have commented. I guess I should just become one of the sheep and do what I am told, stop looking behind the curtain.

Third, After perusing the DHS list of attributes to look for in a domestic terrorist how can anyone think that they are doing anything but mass spying on the law abiding citizens of the U.S. in violation of our Civil Rights?

Finally, I have had "personal" contact with TSA and found it not to be to my liking, so I went to the trouble of switching jobs so I don't have to travel be subjected to their demeaning and illegal treatment of American citizens. All of the bs methods they are currently performing would not have stopped the 9/11 attack methods as I understand it. Begs the question, why are they doing that and why are we allowing it?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

First, I appreciate and respect your military service.

Second, I didn't realize this thread was only for those with personal experience in a Fusion Center or I wouldn't have commented. I guess I should just become one of the sheep and do what I am told, stop looking behind the curtain.

Third, After perusing the DHS list of attributes to look for in a domestic terrorist how can anyone think that they are doing anything but mass spying on the law abiding citizens of the U.S. in violation of our Civil Rights?

Finally, I have had "personal" contact with TSA and found it not to be to my liking, so I went to the trouble of switching jobs so I don't have to travel be subjected to their demeaning and illegal treatment of American citizens. All of the bs methods they are currently performing would not have stopped the 9/11 attack methods as I understand it. Begs the question, why are they doing that and why are we allowing it?

Of course this discussion couldn't be limited to folks with experience of Fusion Centers. I don't have experience with Fusion Centers, so that would be pretty hypocritical of me. What I am saying is that Fusion Centers OF THEMSELVES aren't evil and as BehindBlueIs said, they have their uses beyond searching for potential terror plots. And it's my opinion, based on MY experiences, that having a capability doesn't necessarily result in that capability being misused, as long as watchdogs keep their eyes open.

If you want to discuss specific agencies and their transgressions (and who has anything nice to say about the TSA?), that's great. But treating Fusion Centers as an evil entity just because of their capabilities isn't much different than being against firearms because they've been used for evil purposes in the past and could be used so in the future. They are tools and tools need to be used correctly and for their proper purpose.