So is there a number of sales that constitutes being a dealer?

[wcd]

Out of curiosity for instance if someone were to sell off some previously purchased handguns to make room in your safe just wondering where they would consider you to be a dealer 2-3 perhaps?

 

[HCRMPD1]

I got this information from another forum, so take it with a grain of salt.

The ATF doesn't decide if someone is operating a firearm's business without a license by a set number of purchases and sales. Rather, they do it by your intent. Legally, you can't even buy 1 gun if your intent in doing so is to sell it for profit. However, that obviously doesn't mean you can't buy a gun, keep it a while, and then decide it is a sound decision to sell it. Intent....that's the key. Did you buy it at the time with the intent to sell it for profit? If you do it enough, you'll eventually end up on their radar. For the active gun enthusiast, who might buy 3-5 guns a month and ends up selling all/most of them fairly soon, you are likely not going to raise enough flags to be watched. If you do 1000 a month, you'll be noticed quickly. But again, there is no magic number. It's your intent that matters.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

No.

 

[marvin02]

Ever Sold a Firearm? Does That Make You a Firearms Dealer? -

A Texas man recently plead guilty to unlicensed firearms dealing, the charge of which stemmed from assembling and selling a rifle to a man that later used the rifle in a mass shooting. The rifle was purchased from the dealer three years prior to the fatal shooting of seven people in Odessa...

www.thefirearmblog.com

No set number from what I've seen. Intent and frequency of sales seem to be two factors.

 

[marvin02]

No.

What he said as a direct response to your question.

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

Indianapolis Man Sentenced to 18 Months in Federal Prison for Illegally Trafficking 167 Firearms, Including Guns Tied to Crimes in Chicago

www.justice.gov

INDIANAPOLIS – March 16, 2022
Stephen King, 66, of Indianapolis, was sentenced to 18 months in federal prison yesterday, after pleading guilty to dealing firearms without a federal firearms license.

According to court documents, in August 2020, law enforcement officers in Chicago recovered firearms connected to crimes committed in Chicago. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) Special Agents in Chicago and Indianapolis discovered that the guns had been purchased by King in Indianapolis four days prior to being recovered by law enforcement officers in Chicago.

****Rest of the story in the link

 

[BigRed]

Out of curiosity for instance if someone were to sell off some previously purchased handguns to make room in your safe just wondering where they would consider you to be a dealer 2-3 perhaps?

What ever the atf makes it up to be at any given moment.....

Scum of the scum.

 

[wcd]

Ever Sold a Firearm? Does That Make You a Firearms Dealer? -

A Texas man recently plead guilty to unlicensed firearms dealing, the charge of which stemmed from assembling and selling a rifle to a man that later used the rifle in a mass shooting. The rifle was purchased from the dealer three years prior to the fatal shooting of seven people in Odessa...

www.thefirearmblog.com

No set number from what I've seen. Intent and frequency of sales seem to be two factors.

So I wonder if trading at a ffl may be the least complicated option?

 

[edporch]

Yes, intent is the key.
For example, if somebody has a pattern of repeatedly buying a gun, then quickly turning around and selling it for a profit, it's pretty obvious that their intent is making it a livelihood.

On the flip side, say somebody is a collector who likes specific models and makers of firearms.
Over time, they buy them and over time sell some of them because they've found nicer examples and thin the herd of the ones that have become less desirable to their collection.
That isn't engaging in dealing in firearms, because the intent of making a livelihood from them isn't there.

Or say somebody has a collection they've had for many years, then begin selling the collection off, they're not engaging in dealing firearms without a license for profit, because the intent of making a livelihood from them isn't there.

 

[Brian's Surplus]

Out of curiosity for instance if someone were to sell off some previously purchased handguns to make room in your safe just wondering where they would consider you to be a dealer 2-3 perhaps?

Someone selling one firearm with the intent of making a profit could be considered to be in violation. Someone that inherits a massive collection of 1,000 firearms could theoretically set up at a gun show with 20 tables and sell them all and not be considered to be a dealer, as long as they aren't also buying more guns to resell. It's a huge grey area.

ATF regulations specifically note that the term “dealer” includes a person who engages in such a business or occupation on a part-time basis.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download#:~:text=ATF%20regulations%20specifically%20note%20that,on%20a%20part%2Dtime%20basis.

 

[DadSmith]

I know several people who bought a firearm took it out shot it and decided they didn't like it and put it up for sale the same day.

 

[actaeon277]

Guy Relford just discussed this, I think on the March 5 show.

 

[WebSnyper]

So I wonder if trading at a ffl may be the least complicated option?

Certainly would remove the aspect of "profit motive"

 

[wcd]

Certainly would remove the aspect of "profit motive"

Is that not the truth lol.

 

[Mongo59]

You can sell a gun to liquidate, like getting rid of a collection or to improve your collection. If your intent is to make money other than simple liquidation (replacing your expense) you are going to be suspect. Like they say, it is all intent. So if you do the Looney Toons of 'what a maroon, I only gave $100 for that gun and he just bought it for $1500...' you will need it to post bail.

Lets say you rent a table at a gun show but don't have a FFL. You can sell your privately owned guns at the show. You can even buy guns for personal use at the show. But, if you buy a gun for 'X' and put it back on the table with a price tag of 'Y', the alphabet guys will give you bracelets.

But hell, according to the 1968 GCA, I as a private person without an FFL can't legally clean your gun, clear a jam or take it from your possession. That is the law but not the practice, but they can change the practice any time they want. Now you can see how confusing it gets.

My recommendation is get a copy and read it, get the jest of it, not memorize it because it will change as often as Terminator 3...

 

[wcd]

You can sell a gun to liquidate, like getting rid of a collection or to improve your collection. If your intent is to make money other than simple liquidation (replacing your expense) you are going to be suspect. Like they say, it is all intent. So if you do the Looney Toons of 'what a maroon, I only gave $100 for that gun and he just bought it for $1500...' you will need it to post bail.

Lets say you rent a table at a gun show but don't have a FFL. You can sell your privately owned guns at the show. You can even buy guns for personal use at the show. But, if you buy a gun for 'X' and put it back on the table with a price tag of 'Y', the alphabet guys will give you bracelets.

But hell, according to the 1968 GCA, I as a private person without an FFL can't legally clean your gun, clear a jam or take it from your possession. That is the law but not the practice, but they can change the practice any time they want. Now you can see how confusing it gets.

My recommendation is get a copy and read it, get the jest of it, not memorize it because it will change as often as Terminator 3...

I have been entertaining the idea of selling a few to help defer the cost of a really Nice 1911. Lost a friend. Last week has kind of made me rethink a few things in my life

 

[Mongo59]

I have been entertaining the idea of selling a few to help defer the cost of a really Nice 1911. Lost a friend. Last week has kind of made me rethink a few things in my life

Sorry for your loss.

Not a problem as you are improving your collection...

 

[rob63]

This is one of those I really hate about the law, "intent" is truly in the eye of the beholder, a rather nebulous thing. I think we would all prefer the law to be clear.

The example given above of the guy who bought a bunch of guns and then they were all used in crimes seems like an open and shut case of a guy that was straw purchasing and then dealing to criminals. It also isn't hard to imagine a scenario where he was just a victim of circumstances who bought stuff, suddenly needed the money, and unknowingly unloaded them to someone with criminal intent.

I think it is precisely this question that explains why many people on INGO are very careful about who they buy and sell from in the classifieds.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

What it comes down to is that a firearms dealer is whatever ATF says it is on any given day.

 

[rrschooter]

I'll echo what others have said, it's really about the intent to make a profit. The ATF might make an inquiry if you're selling a lot of guns, but the main driver is profit. I know I've personally never made a profit from a firearm I've sold. At best I've broken even, and I try to keep it that way just to avoid the whole mess.