Security of a free state

[Blackhawk2001]

Don't need to amend the Constitution; just need to reverse a SCOTUS decision footnote.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I didn't say that having illegals working a minimum wage job is helping our economy. In many instances, they don't even work for minimum wage. Because of the lack of stones in our bureaucratic system, they've allowed this to happen and thus have driven down the cost of goods produced in the Southwest. If those companies had to pay minimum wage to these illegals, they would be out of business, the white people in their white collars jobs who there, would be out of work and the economy in that area tanks, because no one has jobs or money to buy the Tommy Hilfiger and Abercrombie clothes in the outlet malls that are all made in Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

I agree about amending the Constitution to eliminate the anchor babies. And I also stressed the need for government to provide tougher border control and security, which means shifting the welfare program money from that pot into the border security pot.

As for the Chinese...hell they could probably overwhelm our army by just coming after use with sticks in the billions. Life is a commodity there without much worth...if a worker dies on the job, just replace with another one.

my whole comment wasnt directed at you. sorry i didnt clarify.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

my whole comment wasnt directed at you. sorry i didnt clarify.

Guess that's why we need the "lawyerly" type of folks to write things in court for us...but no need for apologies...that's why it's a forum.

 

[Stschil]

Most of the Southwest would not survive their economies without these illegal immigrants taking on menial labor jobs in substandard conditions. This is a bureaucratic problem that needs to be addressed and targeted toward those companies who support "paying" the illegals. If there were no jobs available, they wouldn't be here in the first place. .

I disagree about the SW economy 'needing' illegals. But I do agree that this is a socioeconomic issue.
The only reason they 'need' people to do menial jobs is because of the entitlement mentality that is propogated by the government in the form of welfare and other social programs.
These programs allow and even encourage US Citizens to stay home, watch tv, drink beer, etc and not actually try to go out and support our way of life by earning a living.
I am not in any way saying that people do not fall on hard times every now and then. Finding themselves in need of some help. A compassionate society should be there to lend assistance. But this assistance should also be given temporarily and the assistee should be held responsible for getting back on their feet.
Do away with lifetime welfare, free healthcare, etc. Restructure the system to aid and assist, require proof of citizenship. Revisit the Constitution and strike down all precedent that does not fall within it's scope and ENFORCE them.
I believe that this is the path to solving the illegal immigration problem.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

I disagree about the SW economy 'needing' illegals. But I do agree that this is a socioeconomic issue.
The only reason they 'need' people to do menial jobs is because of the entitlement mentality that is propogated by the government in the form of welfare and other social programs.
These programs allow and even encourage US Citizens to stay home, watch tv, drink beer, etc and not actually try to go out and support our way of life by earning a living.
I am not in any way saying that people do not fall on hard times every now and then. Finding themselves in need of some help. A compassionate society should be there to lend assistance. But this assistance should also be given temporarily and the assistee should be held responsible for getting back on their feet.
Do away with lifetime welfare, free healthcare, etc. Restructure the system to aid and assist, require proof of citizenship. Revisit the Constitution and strike down all precedent that does not fall within it's scope and ENFORCE them.
I believe that this is the path to solving the illegal immigration problem.

Same thing I just stated, but in a different way...

 

[E5RANGER375]

My American Dream & The dream I believe our framers intended us to have would be to live on my PAID FOR property, have NO property tax, have NO income tax, social security tax, state tax, mariage tax, gay tax, straight tax, alien tax, death tax, etc.

when i buy a service like: phone, internet, satelite, electric, etc, THEN AND ONLY THEN would I pay a tax and ONLY on the usage of that service.
ALSO, when i go buy goods at the store (if i wanted to) THEN and ONLY THEN would I pay tax on what I bought.

essentialy if you wanted to live off the grid and pay no taxes then you could. that would be your right as an American. This is the way I believe our framers inteneded it to be and the way I think it should be. It would be plenty of money to pay for fire and police protection, and it would keep them from wasting money.
ALSO, ONLY if you had a child IN school would you have to pay an education tax, or pay the actual cost of that student you have in school.

think of all the money (OUR OWN hard earned money) we would have to use how we saw fit, it we went to this way. No more govt wasting of our tax dollars. they wouldnt have extra to waste on handing it out to those who didnt earn it. Also if people had to pay and be responsible for the services they actualy used, and the children they had, instead of someone else paying, then maybe it would force people to keep their damn pants on and stop breading like rabbits, and making me pay to feed their damn rugrats.

 

[downzero]

A desperately poor one. Just like many of our ancestors.

+1. The obvious lack of perspective, racism, and hyper-nationalism makes no sense to me.

This country was built on immigrants and it can either grow on more immigrants or our economic enemies will accept the workers, put them to work, and produce what the US can't.

Illusions of minimum wages and social programs just make the problem worse. Those are failed policies, and locking down our border and turning away willing labor that could grow our economy cannot be justified on some ridiculous government policy that has no basis in sound economic theory.

 

[E5RANGER375]

+1. The obvious lack of perspective, racism, and hyper-nationalism makes no sense to me.

This country was built on immigrants and it can either grow on more immigrants or our economic enemies will accept the workers, put them to work, and produce what the US can't.

Illusions of minimum wages and social programs just make the problem worse. Those are failed policies, and locking down our border and turning away willing labor that could grow our economy cannot be justified on some ridiculous government policy that has no basis in sound economic theory.

theres only so many clowns that can fit into one car.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

It's just a matter of time with this stuff happening, the economy overall in its unsustainability and the overall stupidity of the general public, that we are in for a MAJOR crisis...and SOON.

We can say how this is and how that should be...but that is all talk. It will never happen, not with a country of 310,000,000 and of whom half are illiterate than what was compared to a few decades ago. Like in "The Matrix", the humans are like a virus on the earth, consuming and wasting everything in its path. The 200 something year-old experiment is just about over. There will be a time that it will fall apart....and then it will be a time to rebuild.

 

[PatriotPride]

theres only so many clowns that can fit into one car.

One of these days you are going to buy me a new keyboard---mines getting pretty awful with everything I spit on it Too right!

what kind of a dumb ass mother carrys her baby through a freakin wasteland? come on.

Exactly. What should it matter if it's a woman or old man crossing the border? Are they breaking our laws and invading our country? Yes. Do they absorb bullets? Yes. Do they attempt reentry if caught at the border? YES. Hmmm...maybe if we actually SECURED our borders and our government put it's money where it's mouth is, the problem could be solved. Seems simple enough to me. Make is unacceptably dangerous to invade the country illegally and it becomes a self-correcting problem.

A desperately poor one. Just like many of our ancestors.

So, that is relevant WHY? Hypothetical: I'm going to break into your home today and take what I want. It's ok, I'm "desperately poor". Try having that attitude when entering another country and see where it gets you.

+1. The obvious lack of perspective, racism, and hyper-nationalism makes no sense to me.

This country was built on immigrants and it can either grow on more immigrants or our economic enemies will accept the workers, put them to work, and produce what the US can't.

Illusions of minimum wages and social programs just make the problem worse. Those are failed policies, and locking down our border and turning away willing labor that could grow our economy cannot be justified on some ridiculous government policy that has no basis in sound economic theory.

Then ENLIGHTEN us. How, the HELL, are we lacking perspective, being racist and hyper-nationalist? Your arguments hold ZERO credibility. I don't care if you're a damned white BRIT! If you want to immigrate, do it LEGALLY. Oh, that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO discriminatory and, dare I say it, RACIST! How dare I think that our nations sovereign borders should be protected.

I will concede that there is, in fact, a large amount that "does not make sense" to you. You have a distorted view of economics. Do you REALLY believe that, and I quote you, "it can either grow on more immigrants or our economic enemies will accept the workers, put them to work, and produce what the US can't" ????? For the life of me I can't tell if you actually BELIEVE that. So, in summation of YOUR WORDS, our economy is doomed and will not be able to produce essential items without illegal invaders, and if we don't accept them someone else will, and THAT country will be able to manufacture items that we can't?

Thank you for the headache. I despair for the future of this country.

 

[PatriotPride]

^^^I have now had my coffee. Nothing like a good debate

 

[jboritzki]

+1. The obvious lack of perspective, racism, and hyper-nationalism makes no sense to me.

This country was built on immigrants and it can either grow on more immigrants or our economic enemies will accept the workers, put them to work, and produce what the US can't.

Illusions of minimum wages and social programs just make the problem worse. Those are failed policies, and locking down our border and turning away willing labor that could grow our economy cannot be justified on some ridiculous government policy that has no basis in sound economic theory.

Do what? Racism and hyper-nationalism? What country doesn't have Immigration policies? The only reason anyone is talking about racism is because the bulk of the illegal immigrants are not white people. There is no racism here and there is none in the Arizona state or federal laws regarding immigration. Claiming racism is usually the first line out of the mouth of someone that doesn't have a real point to make. Don't have a real point, then demonize the opposition. Claim they're evil, blind, and cold-hearted. Call them names. Do anything but debate the real issue. Put them on the defensive and go around the debate.

Lets just say we had the power and ability and the will to close all of our borders and only let in the people that came here legally. Does anyone really believe that the only people we would allow in would be white people? Does anyone actually believe that we would not allow a single person into this country? You're completely full of it if you believe either of those things.

The only reason to not want the borders secured is because you want the people to continue to come into this country illegally. Everyone knows there are people by the millions coming into this country illegally and everyone should know that would be a problem for any country. They don't pay income taxes, they take jobs, they violate the law, they cost Americans money, etc. A few hundred is no big deal, we would absorb that without much notice, but we're talking about millions with no end to it in sight. That becomes harder to absorb and people start to take notice and want something done about it.

If Americans want to help their country, free of charge, by reporting illegal activity then that is fine. Who could possibly disagree with reporting a crime they're witnessing to the authorities? If those same people are legally armed for the purpose of self defense, no one on here disagrees with that either, seeing as how we are all gun owners and KNOW that just because you own, shoot, or carry a gun, you're not a nut case. But if you live in a border town and the illegal activity you're reporting to the authorities is people jumping a fence and entering this country illegally, then you're a nut case? You're only armed because you want to attack people with a firearm? You're a murderer and a racist? Absolute hogwash! There is not an ounce of truth to that and everyone knows it.

And this country was built on immigrants that came here and became citizens, worked and paid taxes, had a love of their new home, and assimilated to the culture here and learned and spoke the language. When income taxes was included in the tax burden, those former immigrants, now citizens, shouldered that burden.

 

[PatriotPride]

^^^Well said.

Rebuttal stating how we are racist and don't understand economics is pending. Standby.

 

[Joe Williams]

+1. The obvious lack of perspective, racism, and hyper-nationalism makes no sense to me.

snip.

Well, your decision to resort to the lie that those you disagree with must be racist only tells me that you have no facts to support your argument, and have childishly resorted to name calling out of frustration.

 

[dross]

Let's say I live on the border. I want to hire a nanny/maid/cook. I can't afford one here, but there's a lady I know who lives across the border. The money I can afford to pay her is much more than she can make in Mexico. She gets a job for pay that she is very happy with, I get an employee I'm very happy with. It's a win for her and a win for me.

How is our agreement and exchange of money and services anyone's business? Who is harmed?

 

[jboritzki]

Let's say I live on the border. I want to hire a nanny/maid/cook. I can't afford one here, but there's a lady I know who lives across the border. The money I can afford to pay her is much more than she can make in Mexico. She gets a job for pay that she is very happy with, I get an employee I'm very happy with. It's a win for her and a win for me.

How is our agreement and exchange of money and services anyone's business? Who is harmed?

Well she is not paying income taxes for one. She is breaking the law by coming here for two. You are violating the law by hiring her for three. Then I guess you got to worry about the fact that she might realize how much your kid is worth on the black market, because it's a lot more than you're going to pay her. Of course, if she did decide to do that, you can't really track her to find your kid because any bank account, credit card, or trace of her is someone else's stolen identity. Those are just a few reasons I can think of as to why that might be a bad idea.

 

[dom1104]

"Then I guess you got to worry about the fact that she might realize how much your kid is worth on the black market, because it's a lot more than you're going to pay her."

THIS is the scary part imo.

But seriously, the answer lies somewhere other than "kill them all" and "let them flow thru like water."

 

[jbombelli]

You want to stop people from coming here illegally? Making it riskier to come here won't stop them. We have to eliminate the reason most of them are coming here in the first place.
here is a brief sketch of my idea on the matter:

1) Nobody can take part in any entitlement programs of any sort, including welfare, foodstamps, and healthcare among others, until they've been here, and been documented, and filed tax returns and paid into the system, for a minimum of 5 years.

2) Any company caught knowingly employing illegals immediately loses its business license, and has its doors closed. Further, any management personnel that were aware go to prison for a minimum of 1 year per occurrence. Further, paying anyone less than the required minimum wage should also result in such severe sanctions that it would have been cheaper just to pay people at least the minimum.

3) Anybody caught here illegally gets deported the first time, and imprisoned the 2nd time, for a minimum of 5 years, and then deported.

4) Everyone coming over the border needs to be fingerprinted, background-checked, and receive a unique social security number. They shouldn't have to have a job waiting for them, but should instead have to compete for jobs like everyone else.

This would be easy to implement and would probably be sustainable. It is in no way a complete plan, but simply a brief outline. It needs to be fleshed out a bit for sure.

 

[PatriotPride]

^^^The problem with imprisoning them is that is STILL takes a HUGE amount of our tax dollars to do so, while providing them with "3 hots and a cot". I agree with some of your points.

 

[E5RANGER375]

^^^The problem with imprisoning them is that is STILL takes a HUGE amount of our tax dollars to do so, while providing them with "3 hots and a cot". I agree with some of your points.

so thats why we develop a illegal alien prisoner work program no sense in not taking advantage of some good chalupa makers

time to build some new bridges anyways i believe.