Secondary Less Lethal

[indydrummer]

I’d like to get others opinions on continuum of force and the idea of carrying a less lethal weapon as an option along with a firearm.
I think both it’sa hood thing and also not worth it as well. There are many times where certain situations may call for self defense but not be quite enough to use deadly force.
I also think that if a weapon like that is pulled the bad guy may also have a firearm and potential deadly mistake. Other thing is if you have a less lethal option with you and you use your firearm I’m sure prosecutor or court will find a way to say that it should’ve been used instead.
I have taser, Pepperball/ kinetic launchers, spray etc. I mostly have my wife carry these but I wonder what others do. I also don’t like the idea of another item to carry and try to conceal.

 

[Tactically Fat]

How much time do you think you're going to have?

Have you had any force-on-force training with less lethal? How about FoF with "lethal" tools?

IMO - this is all a training issue.

 

[tsm]

I assume you’re not a cop who has to accommodate all types of situations. If you’re in fear of your life and there’re no escape options, use deadly force to eliminate the threat. Anything less than that, leave the confrontation or don’t get into one in the first place (i.e., don’t go into bars or the hood after midnight, etc.) and you won’t need to walk around with excess paraphernalia risking an accident like befell that woman cop who fired a gun thinking it was her taser.

 

[MCgrease08]

Is this a serious post? I'm having a hard time following OP's position.

But to answer the question (maybe). Yes, I believe everyone should carry a good OC spray. I can think of plenty of scenarios where a situation doesn't warrant deadly force but could be solved by hosing some jerk down with spicy perfume.

 

[Tryin']

If you need less lethal for something not in a job description, there isn't much I would recommend beyond pepper spray. If you need more than that, get a 40mm with a variety of rounds and be done with it.

 

[tim87tr]

POM spray sold on Amazon has a pocket clip version with a spring loaded covered trigger and index nub on the business end.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Is this a serious post? I'm having a hard time following OP's position.

But to answer the question (maybe). Yes, I believe everyone should carry a good OC spray. I can think of plenty of scenarios where a situation doesn't warrant deadly force but could be solved by hosing some jerk down with spicy perfume.

Like the GSD sized dog that was harrassing me from 3' barking at me on my own property. The dogs next door to my church that belong to the guy that likes to drive through our yard for those following along.

I was 20' inside our property line minimum marking a path with marking paint for an event and he followed me a good 50' in, barking at me incessantly. Had I not had the assurance from animal control that swears "He's not mean. He wont bite bread." (whatever that means) I would have lit him up if I had my spray on me. I know It hadnt reached the point of lethal force based on all the info.

Luckily after our complaint to animal control, they keep him inside on Sundays just in case. So we were fine at the actual event.

 

[Cameramonkey]

POM spray sold on Amazon has a pocket clip version with a spring loaded covered trigger and index nub on the business end.

This is the activator you want. Ive tried the twist and press safety models, but they were not intuitive and I think under stress a user would likely just push down and nothing would happen.

 

[bwframe]

I carry POM in the vehicles. May or may not have it on me out and about. Mainly keep it for aggressive transients. Also handy to have something to hand off to others, if necessary.

I'd second TF on the FOF classes. A lot of users might be shocked at how much a motivated pepper sprayed attacker can do to you. A skilled attacker could actually beat you to death before or after the spray took full effect.


.

 

[cosermann]

Pepper spray is the way to go for us regular folks less lethal option. Tasers are generally suboptimal, imo, for non-LEO use for lots of reasons I don't have the time to get into (not the least of which are about a 50% failure rate, 1-shot "capacity", bulky, and poor cost effectiveness).

 

[tim87tr]

This is the activator you want. Ive tried the twist and press safety models, but they were not intuitive and I think under stress a user would likely just push down and nothing would happen.

I have one first hand experience with a dog recently and it shoots a thin stream up to 15 ft from what I saw. I noticed I adjusted the point of aim as I could see the thin stream from distance. I would have been been bitten or worse by a large dog. YMMV but it stopped and ran after a snarling straight on charge when the spray hit its face. Sure have a backup sidearm but this incident turned out to be a non-event in terms of anyone knowing or dealing with some report.

What you said about being intuitive did benefit me as I had pulled it out from the pocket clip and had it in my hand. Without looking my index finger was on the index nub (business end right above), and the thumb pushes up and under the spring tab over the trigger. I like the design. The two piece capsule can be rotated to have the clip and business end oriented correctly if it is pulled from a pocket.

I should have tested it previously as they're only about $10 and the benefit can be great. I believe there's some Youtube videos of people testing it on each other.

 

[bwframe]

Pepper Spray | POM Self Defense OC Spray

POM Pepper Spray is one of the best self-defense tools for everyone to stay prepared and protected. Pepper Spray Made with oleoresin capsicum (OC).

pompepperspray.com

 

[Cameramonkey]

And the first rule of pepper spray is: MOVE! If you are standing in the same spot you were before you blessed them with the sauce, you are doing it wrong. As mentioned, determined individuals will still fight through the pain even if they cant see you. Spray, move, SHUT UP. Repeat as necessary until they are no longer a threat. failure to move immediately (think of dodging a raging bull) could result in them making contact even though they can no longer see their target.

John Murphy shows one of these events in his class. Teen girls as I recall. Aggressor advances on smaller girl. Smaller girl blesses her with a generous application and stands in the same place being mouthy. Aggressor charges toward the sound, knocks her to the ground and pummels her blindly while screaming through the pain. Ooooops.

 

[Gabriel]

And the first rule of pepper spray is: MOVE! If you are standing in the same spot you were before you blessed them with the sauce, you are doing it wrong. As mentioned, determined individuals will still fight through the pain even if they cant see you. Spray, move, SHUT UP. Repeat as necessary until they are no longer a threat. failure to move immediately (think of dodging a raging bull) could result in them making contact even though they can no longer see their target.

John Murphy shows one of these events in his class. Teen girls as I recall. Aggressor advances on smaller girl. Smaller girl blesses her with a generous application and stands in the same place being mouthy. Aggressor charges toward the sound, knocks her to the ground and pummels her blindly while screaming through the pain. Ooooops.

It really doesn't matter if you move or what. if you spray it, you're going to get it also. I understand that the use of OC spray for LE is somewhat different for everyone else, but I've never seen anyone get sprayed that it didn't just **** off more and then you're all just fighting with someone that's covered in OC. I simply don't use it anymore. For everyone else that has the idea to spray and run, it may not be a horrible option.

 

[bwframe]

It really doesn't matter if you move or what. if you spray it, you're going to get it also. I understand that the use of OC spray for LE is somewhat different for everyone else, but I've never seen anyone get sprayed that it didn't just **** off more and then you're all just fighting with someone that's covered in OC. I simply don't use it anymore. For everyone else that has the idea to spray and run, it may not be a horrible option.

Very interesting.

 

[Amishman44]

I’d like to get other's opinions on continuum of force and the idea of carrying a less lethal weapon as an option along with a firearm.
I think both it’s a good thing and also not worth it as well. There are many times where certain situations may call for self-defense but not be quite enough to use deadly force.
I also think that if a weapon like that is pulled the bad guy may also have a firearm and potential deadly mistake. Other thing is if you have a less lethal option with you and you use your firearm, I’m sure prosecutor or court will find a way to say that it should’ve been used instead.
I have taser, Pepper ball/ kinetic launchers, spray etc. I mostly have my wife carry these, but I wonder what others do. I also don’t like the idea of another item to carry and try to conceal.

This could be quite a discussion...

I carry Sabre Pepper Spray - Gel as an intermediate level of defense, if a need arises to defend myself, if given the opportunity to utilize it vs the use of a firearm...and it's important to note that there's no legal ramifications for utilizing pepper spray against an aggressive individual versus a firearm in defending one's self in a time of need.

IF, you have good situational awareness skills, you have your head on a swivel and you're paying attention to what's going on around you, and you don't have your head buried in your cell phone, there's a good chance you can at least spot potential danger and take steps to avoid (if possible) or be a step ahead of danger in your response (aka, ahead of the 8-ball), rather than simply respond to it when it occurs (aka, after the fact or behind the 8-ball) and caught in the middle of it...at least ideally.

There's training available to help learn and develop good situational awareness skills so one is better prepared in their recognition of a dangerous situation and how to take steps to avoid it, if at all possible.

Here's a a good article that covers a portion of your question, here...

The “Use of Force Continuum” and Its Relationship to Indiana Law – Indiana Responsible Gun Owners

myirgo.com

 

[Amishman44]

And the first rule of pepper spray is: MOVE! If you are standing in the same spot you were before you blessed them with the sauce, you are doing it wrong. As mentioned, determined individuals will still fight through the pain even if they cant see you. Spray, move, SHUT UP. Repeat as necessary until they are no longer a threat. failure to move immediately (think of dodging a raging bull) could result in them making contact even though they can no longer see their target.

John Murphy shows one of these events in his class. Teen girls as I recall. Aggressor advances on smaller girl. Smaller girl blesses her with a generous application and stands in the same place being mouthy. Aggressor charges toward the sound, knocks her to the ground and pummels her blindly while screaming through the pain. Ooooops.

I recommend pepper Gel vs spray...gel sprays in a stream that is directable and sticks to the individual, increasing the odds of its effectiveness. And, most importantly, the wind can't blow it around as much so the odds of it affecting the user is a lot less than when spray is utilized!
I actually teach a course on Pepper Spray for Civilian use, by SABRE, that teaches this and provides water-based gels with which to practice using pepper-gel with water instead of Oleoresin Capsicum, which is the active ingredient in pepper gel.

 

[ECS686]

I assume you’re not a cop who has to accommodate all types of situations. If you’re in fear of your life and there’re no escape options, use deadly force to eliminate the threat. Anything less than that, leave the confrontation or don’t get into one in the first place (i.e., don’t go into bars or the hood after midnight, etc.) and you won’t need to walk around with excess paraphernalia risking an accident like befell that woman cop who fired a gun thinking it was her taser.

Respectfully, that whole phrase “in fear of my life” is a blanket statement and will get you placed in cuffs more times than it doesn’t. You have to articulate WHY you were about to have serious bodily harm or death to yourself or others!

Some type of Pepper spray is a smart move. There’s a lot more situations where you can legally pepper spray someone over using deadly force. And if it goes up to lethal as long as you can “Articulate “ you acted within the law using a less lethal first will help your case.

Over 30 years working LE I will tell you most random crime cases are not a cut and dry lethal force scenario like shooting cardboard at a range.. Thugs push the limits and try and get in your personal space. They know what the victims response will be and probably have you read like a book.

Behind Blue feel free to expand

 

[indydrummer]

This could be quite a discussion...

I carry Sabre Pepper Spray - Gel as an intermediate level of defense, if a need arises to defend myself, if given the opportunity to utilize it vs the use of a firearm...and it's important to note that there's no legal ramifications for utilizing pepper spray against an aggressive individual versus a firearm in defending one's self in a time of need.

IF, you have good situational awareness skills, you have your head on a swivel and you're paying attention to what's going on around you, and you don't have your head buried in your cell phone, there's a good chance you can at least spot potential danger and take steps to avoid (if possible) or be a step ahead of danger in your response (aka, ahead of the 8-ball), rather than simply respond to it when it occurs (aka, after the fact or behind the 8-ball) and caught in the middle of it...at least ideally.

There's training available to help learn and develop good situational awareness skills so one is better prepared in their recognition of a dangerous situation and how to take steps to avoid it, if at all possible.

Here's a a good article that covers a portion of your question, here...

The “Use of Force Continuum” and Its Relationship to Indiana Law – Indiana Responsible Gun Owners

myirgo.com

Awesome, thanks for the link.

 

[cosermann]

The current OC gel (and foam) formulations take a long-ish time (too long imho) to take effect - on the order of 15 sec up to 1 minute - usually around 30 sec* - an ETERNITY in many self-defense situations. For this reason, I don't recommend them for most people's personal defense needs unless there's some reason for an over-riding concern about cross contamination. The gels are very slow to aerosolize and have minimal respiratory effect.

And, there are potential legal ramifications to using pepper spray, just as there are with poking someone in the eyes, or any other use of force. It has to be reasonable force given the circumstances.

Here's an article with some solid information - https://www.recoilweb.com/how-to-pepper-spray-139086.html

* - Times are from Chuck Haggard's OC instructor class notes.