SCOTUS Considers Eliminating Affirmative Action for College Admission

[jwamplerusa]

Not directly affected, but certainly indirectly affected.

You should look to see what occurred in the aviation industry and specifically those employed by air carriers. Nearly all of the major air carriers existent in 1990 had defined benefit pension programs. With maybe a couple of exceptions those programs all went by the way by 2010 as all but one of the airlines declared bankruptcy and jettisoned their unfunded pension programs on to the PBGC. I have known way too many people who worked 20, 30, even 40 years for a single carrier only to find out that their pension was going to be 10% of what was promised.

The above is the dark underbelly of poorly done deregulation in a highly regulated industry. It is also what occurs when the bankruptcy code permits insolvent businesses to compete against others with protection of the courts.

ETA: Now back to affirmative action...

 

[Vodnik4]

And the older I get, the more I worry about running into medical professionals who were “helped” by affirmative action in lieu of actual race-blind qualifications!

Yep. It is my belief that smart, motivated people will get ahead despite of circumstances, especially now.

When Mrs had a difficult pregnancy with our third one, she requested to deal only with one OBGYN at the practice she used — a young lady Dr who just happened to be AA. She did that because the Dr was very good, with excellent bedside manner and qualifications, earned her trust and made her feel at ease in a difficult time.

On the other hand, I see a lot of millennials doing the opposite — claiming that somebody is good professionally only because of their race. Or recommending really crappy food places because they are owned by “oppressed”.

 

[tmcindy]

It is also what occurs when the bankruptcy code permits insolvent businesses to compete against others with protection of the courts.

Yes. I had a step brother who found this out the hard way at Wonder Bread. They took the company to court complaining about this and that & the judge told them, "Gentlemen, during bankruptcy, your contract with the company is null and void". Oopsie. Reality check.

 

[JEBland]

Oral arguments from today (5 hours!)



One hour discussion from the Manhattan Institute:


ScotusBlog post that attempts to be neutral on the issue (currently reading):

Affirmative action appears in jeopardy after marathon arguments - SCOTUSblog

In 2003, a divided Supreme Court ruled in Grutter v. Bollinger that the University of Michigan Law School could consider race in its admissions process as part of its efforts to assemble a diverse student body. In her opinion for the majority, now-retired Justice Sandra Day O’Connor suggested that,

www.scotusblog.com

Edit:
From the ScotusBlog article:

And Justice Elena Kagan stressed the potential impact of a ruling in favor of SFFA on not only universities but also U.S. society more broadly. Calling universities “the pipelines to leadership in our society,” she told Strawbridge that “if universities are not racially diverse” then a broad range of other institutions – such as businesses and law firms – “are not going to be racially diverse either.”

Kagan's actually got it wrong here (there might need to be an asterisk for law school) - students from different ethnicities have similar success/failure rates in a given program when they enter with similar test scores. So we'd have more black doctors, engineers, etc, because selective institutions set students up for failure with these policies. Not only do they graduate at higher rates, but they also (statistically) have more successful careers when admitted based on objective academically related measures. Not only are these policies overtly racist, they actively harm the communities they pretend to serve while bragging about diversity measures.

 

[04FXSTS]

At my age I am old enough to have seen a lot of things and hopefully I remember them correctly. Affirmative action as initially instituted was needed and a good thing at least in my opinion. Black people and others were discriminated against so affirmative action said a person could not be discriminated against because of their race. No matter if you are black, brown white or whatever you should have the same opportunity for education and/or a job based on qualifications. Now it has turned into a quota system that is as unfair as things were before affirmative was instituted. Jim.

 

[tmcindy]

At my age I am old enough to have seen a lot of things and hopefully I remember them correctly. Affirmative action as initially instituted was needed and a good thing at least in my opinion. Black people and others were discriminated against so affirmative action said a person could not be discriminated against because of their race. No matter if you are black, brown white or whatever you should have the same opportunity for education and/or a job based on qualifications. Now it has turned into a quota system that is as unfair as things were before affirmative was instituted. Jim.

It's all about revenge.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

It's all about revenge.

It's about "equity". It used to be about "equality". Everyone should have equal opportunity, but it's up to the individual to take advantage of that opportunity or not.

Equity is about everyone having the same results regardless of the effort put in to achieve the results.

 

[tmcindy]

It's about "equity". It used to be about "equality". Everyone should have equal opportunity, but it's up to the individual to take advantage of that opportunity or not.

Equity is about everyone having the same results regardless of the effort put in to achieve the results.

Yes, but, once it's pointed out to 'them' how wrong it is, they don't care. It becomes more of a revenge. It's owed to 'them'.

 

[tmcindy]

Reparations = Revenge.

 

[BigRed]

Thomas is outstanding.

 

[BJHay]

And the older I get, the more I worry about running into medical professionals who were “helped” by affirmative action in lieu of actual race-blind qualifications!

The term 'diversity hire' is a pejorative that is bound to stick around as long as affirmative action does.

 

[BJHay]

I like what John Roberts said a few years ago:

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

 

[Rayz]

Not directly affected, but certainly indirectly affected.

You should look to see what occurred in the aviation industry and specifically those employed by air carriers. Nearly all of the major air carriers existent in 1990 had defined benefit pension programs. With maybe a couple of exceptions those programs all went by the way by 2010 as all but one of the airlines declared bankruptcy and jettisoned their unfunded pension programs on to the PBGC. I have known way too many people who worked 20, 30, even 40 years for a single carrier only to find out that their pension was going to be 10% of what was promised.

The above is the dark underbelly of poorly done deregulation in a highly regulated industry. It is also what occurs when the bankruptcy code permits insolvent businesses to compete against others with protection of the courts.

ETA: Now back to affirmative action...

That's why when United left I gave up on aviation. We were over promised a lot of things until the pilots got there cut.

 

[jwamplerusa]

Equity is about everyone having the same results regardless of the effort put in to achieve the results.

In other words, communism.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Kagan's actually got it wrong here (there might need to be an asterisk for law school) - students from different ethnicities have similar success/failure rates in a given program when they enter with similar test scores. So we'd have more black doctors, engineers, etc, because selective institutions set students up for failure with these policies. Not only do they graduate at higher rates, but they also (statistically) have more successful careers when admitted based on objective academically related measures. Not only are these policies overtly racist, they actively harm the communities they pretend to serve while bragging about diversity measures.

I read an editorial from a black professor at one of the Ivy League schools (iirc Harvard) who said basically the same thing. That some would come in so far behind that there was no way they could keep up with the rigorous schedule demands. They would try and just keep falling farther behind. He said they would do much better if they went to a community college or similar for a year or two before entering. He said he saw it across all races/students, but it was much higher among blacks due to the affirmative action policies.

 

[wtburnette]

I read an editorial from a black professor at one of the Ivy League schools (iirc Harvard) who said basically the same thing. That some would come in so far behind that there was no way they could keep up with the rigorous schedule demands. They would try and just keep falling farther behind. He said they would do much better if they went to a community college or similar for a year or two before entering. He said he saw it across all races/students, but it was much higher among blacks due to the affirmative action policies.

Thomas Sowell has said the same.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Thomas Sowell has said the same.

Quite possibly who I was thinking of. He's at Stamford. I suck at names, I'd forget my own if it wasn't sewn into my underwear.

 

[JEBland]

I read an editorial from a black professor at one of the Ivy League schools (iirc Harvard) who said basically the same thing. That some would come in so far behind that there was no way they could keep up with the rigorous schedule demands. They would try and just keep falling farther behind. He said they would do much better if they went to a community college or similar for a year or two before entering. He said he saw it across all races/students, but it was much higher among blacks due to the affirmative action policies.

Yeah, but you can also find Ivy -Leaguers who say things along the lines of "so what if it on average hurts the graduation rates of black students in engineering and mathematics... Think about the goal, it's a good goal" (My paraphrasing of Randall Kennedy in the following, I don't have time to find the timestamp at the moment):


My point is that not only is this government sponsored racism (either in public schools or using public dollars), but it's counterproductive to that noble goal of helping those we believe to be disadvantaged actually succeed. When it's wrong in principle and harmful to the communities it claims to serve, why is this even a partisan issue?

 

[rhamersley]

Yeah, but you can also find Ivy -Leaguers who say things along the lines of "so what if it on average hurts the graduation rates of black students in engineering and mathematics... Think about the goal, it's a good goal" (My paraphrasing of Randall Kennedy in the following, I don't have time to find the timestamp at the moment):


My point is that not only is this government sponsored racism (either in public schools or using public dollars), but it's counterproductive to that noble goal of helping those we believe to be disadvantaged actually succeed. When it's wrong in principle and harmful to the communities it claims to serve, why is this even a partisan issue?

 

[xwing]

Will get about 25% of what was promised. (Teamsters).

Ahh. Central States Funds. They got helped out a lot by last year's stimulus bill though. It was a political payoff which used a whole bunch of taxpayer money to make the union pension solvent for another few decades. So it's actually in pretty good shape right now, compared to a few years ago.