Safety VS safety?

[92FSTech]

Every time somebody points a gun at me and then responds with, "but the safety is on," or, "it's not loaded," when I call them out on it, I really want to take it and holster it somewhere they won't like. There'd be quite a few people walking around funny as a result .

I'd be perfectly ok with, "sorry, it won't happen again." And then not doing it again.

Be a man. Learn from and own your mistakes. Excuses (especially invalid ones), just make it clear that you learned nothing and aren't going to change your behavior.

 

[Sigblitz]

I reminded them of their rules for safety. Because I didn't want to get shot. Ok, cool. But it still went on. I was putting my pistols in the bag and Mike ran in. Ran them off.
I stayed and finished my range time.

 

[12many]

My feeling is that EVERYONE makes mistakes or will make one at some point in life.

A manual safety for me is just a little insurance against that one time things don't go as planned.

How many here carry a cocked 1911 without the safety engaged?

I'd rather have it and not need it than.....

40 plus years ago I carried a 70 series lightweight commander (wish I still had it)
Carried it cocked and locked and never had an issue.
Was taking it off one night and as I was laying it on my nightstand it went off .
I thought for sure the round had gone into my neighbors house just across my driveway.
Luckily it lodged in my window frame.
Shook me up pretty bad and I never really carried it much again.
I switched over to a Colt cobra and carried that for a long time with no issues and finally made back into SA’s starting with my old S&W39
I’m never really figured out what happed but I’ve always believed that best safety is the one between your ears

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I like UD and I may refer to it that way more often. I know we're playing with words but not following basic safety protocols when handling a firearm, intended or not seems negligent to me.

It *generally* is, but not always. Off the top of my head would be someone who legitimately doesn't know better. Say someone on Ambien or the like in that sleep-walking state who isn't even consciously aware of what they are doing. Definitely accidental, probably not negligent, certainly unintended.

Or, more simply and something every range officer has probably witnessed at least once: an unintentional double under heavy recoil for a new shooter (or old shooter learning a new gun's characteristics). The first shot was intended, but the second shot was accidental. I doubt many would consider that negligent as long as it's in a controlled environment.

So, for blanket discussions I simply prefer UD, as it's not common parlance in the AD vs ND debates and bypasses it entirely. Then each individual incident can be evaluated for accidental and/or negligent if relevant.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Funny this is brought up again.Years ago, and on this forum I was chastised by more than one self appointed firearms trainer, some who are dead or out of the business now, for careless Blue Gun handling in a classroom.

I have witnessed the inert object transference by students many times. Some of them now are dead, injured or have gotten out of the gun game.

Our training doctrine is so outdated by todays standards that I urge all who take money for responsible training to take training from the train the trainer pros.

Ideally, there is nothing wrong with a mechanical safety switch. However, gun education done right with practice and skill set evals constantly makes the mechanical safety redundant on most stock service guns. However, noobs will find a way to shoot them selves or worse.

But that’s the rub isn’t it. If someone here knows of an analysis spreadsheet of the percentage to gun owners of those that are at a NRA Expert level or higher, that will tell a scary tale.

This is not a new measurement but nevertheless a worse one in a new populous that enjoys a Right without a responsibility, student, gun groupie or professional trainer.

 

[WanderingSol07]

Ayoob said something about thumb safeties a while back. What if the bad guy gets a hold of your gun? Would you want it to have a thumb safety that may take them several seconds to figure out? I prefer no mechanical safety, carried one for years. Now working on my next EDC and it will have a thumb and grip safety. These are my personal choices.

 

[Bassat]

I take some small bit of exception to 'most' people don't know how to properly handle a firearm. I suppose that could be true, but I doubt it. The thumb safety is a tool, if you are comfortable with it, train with it, actually USE it, it will not be a problem. I carried a condition 1 1911 for years, and never had a problem using a thumb safety, or a grip safety, or a stupid Series 80-type firing pin safety. To my way of thinking, a cocked and locked 1911, handled by someone who knows HOW to handle it, is a lot more safe than striker fired, no manual safety Glock or SigSauer. You do you, I'll do me. I have gotten away from carrying 3 pounds of steel around with me; I'm too old for that. My other carry was a 5-shot, 2" barrel Taurus 85CH, which only has a transfer bar safety (no thumb safety, obviously). It never bothered me to have two completely different handguns. The SAFETY rules are exactly the same for each, and for any other firearm.
Today my most frequent carry pieces are a Sig P365XL with a manual thumb safety, and a Kahr CM9 DAO. I don't view the Sig as any different than a 1911 with respect to the actual mechanics of draw and fire, and I like the comfort and peace-of-mind from the thumb safety. The DAO trigger on the Kahr makes it uncannily (is that a word?) similar to a revolver; the trigger pull IS a manual safety.
My youngest (42) daughter carries a P365 with a manual safety. Her 14 year old son shoots with it, too. Both of them are well-versed in the manual of arms for that hardware. Both are also well-versed in the 4 general rules of firearms safety. Neither of them will confuse a manual (or passive) safety built into a firearm with proper SAFE handling of said equipment. That said, it is a constant battle to make them constantly aware. Stupid happens. Stay vigilant.

 

[ECS686]

More instances than I care to remember when working as RSO I had a firearm pointed at me and when chastised the operator said, "the safety is on OR it's unloaded"

This is the issue. People don’t take firearms ownership or especially the act of carrying a defensive firearm as the “LIFESTYLE “ change it is.

They treat it like it’s loaded…well til they THINK it’s unloaded then. All the rules are out the window! Like how many televisions get shot uo on weekends all by unloaded guns!

I too have been told “it’s unloaded” while on a range like right after they were shooting! Like no that’s how people put holes in things. Some folks don’t get it and a safety will not correct that. They either struggle to figure out it’s on or forget it’s not on and the 4 rules get violates and then there is a hole in something.

Like anything, driving responsibly, drinking responsibly or responsibly owning a gun. It’s a case by case basis and not everyone is there or will they be!

 

[Hookeye]

Grew up w thumb safety autos. Doesnt bother me to have them on my modern polymer stuff.

I use safeties, but I still dont trust em.

 

[Bassat]

You have to have a grip safety in case you drop your pistol while on horseback.

Whaaaaatttt? The grip safety on a 1911 does absolutely nothing to prevent the dropped gun from going off on impact. The grip safety not engaged only prevents the trigger being pulled. The grip safety on a 1911, whether engaged or not engaged, has no effect AT ALL on the free-floating firing pin. You want a 'drop' safety, buy a Series 80-type 1911. That has a firing pin block that is dis-engaged by the TRIGGER, not by the grip safety. Seems to me that if you drop a 1911 just right, the trigger can move rearward, while the ground impact depresses the grip safety, completely negating any prevention of AD. Ditto for the similar Kimber II firing pin safety, which is activated by the GRIP safety. Gun falls, impacts on grip safety, firing pin block is dis-engaged. In both cases (Series 80, and Kimber II), dropping the firearm MAY disengage the firing pin safety. I wouldn't own a 1911 with a firing pin safety. Both (80, II) firing pin safeties add a failure point to the firearm, that under the right circumstances, can prevent YOU from firing YOUR gun, when you need to. And neither gets anywhere near fully PREVENTING a drop-discharge.

 

[Creedmoor]

Given that when it comes to pistols, it is Glock World and we all just live in it. Glock, Smut und Weasel, Sprungfeld, Ssshhheytar, Falter, Pizza guns (APX), etc. all are without external safeties and they are what, 93.8% of the market to first timers?

Aren't new gun owners using striker fired pistols? How many of those use manual safeties? I don't think Glock markets their external safeties here (aftermarket, yes)? On the MHS Glock 19X there the safeties that Big Army demanded, but on COTS guns they are absent. Just got into an argument over this as a Zoomer told me that Glock does not EVER use external safeties (ahh, Zoomer, get out more).

Does anyone do safeties on plastic fantastic striker pistols? Who is using a 1911 as their first pistol now (other than my family)?

Do not see this as an issue. If it is an issue, then learning the form until you forget the form with the 4 Rules and not being cutesy with special snowflake rules will fix it.

Are you saying that glocks trigger dongle is not an external safety?

 

[Brad69]

The grip safety was not for hitting the ground the Calvary used lanyards.

The Army didn’t feel confident that a pistol would not fire while bouncing around on a horse.

John Browning didn’t want it.

I only have a DW its a work of art.

 

[Creedmoor]

The grip safety was not for hitting the ground the Calvary used lanyards.

The Army didn’t feel confident that a pistol would not fire while bouncing around on a horse.

John Browning didn’t want it.

I only have Colt's, they are all works of art.

You were so close, so I FIFY

 

[Bassat]

Are you saying that glocks trigger dongle is not an external safety?

This was not directed toward me, but in my opinion the annoying little thing on Glock triggers serves one purpose: to irritate my trigger finger. Safety? Only in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY event that something reaches 1/8" into the trigger guard, and NOT 1/4", where it will pull both the trigger and the annoyance. Don't get me wrong, my G21g4 is the easiest shooting .45 ACP pistol I've ever fired. I love it, except for the annoyance in the center of the trigger. It would be a better gun with the annoyance.

 

[Trapper Jim]

I take some small bit of exception to 'most' people don't know how to properly handle a firearm. I suppose that could be true, but I doubt it. The thumb safety is a tool, if you are comfortable with it, train with it, actually USE it, it will not be a problem. I carried a condition 1 1911 for years, and never had a problem using a thumb safety, or a grip safety, or a stupid Series 80-type firing pin safety. To my way of thinking, a cocked and locked 1911, handled by someone who knows HOW to handle it, is a lot more safe than striker fired, no manual safety Glock or SigSauer. You do you, I'll do me. I have gotten away from carrying 3 pounds of steel around with me; I'm too old for that. My other carry was a 5-shot, 2" barrel Taurus 85CH, which only has a transfer bar safety (no thumb safety, obviously). It never bothered me to have two completely different handguns. The SAFETY rules are exactly the same for each, and for any other firearm.
Today my most frequent carry pieces are a Sig P365XL with a manual thumb safety, and a Kahr CM9 DAO. I don't view the Sig as any different than a 1911 with respect to the actual mechanics of draw and fire, and I like the comfort and peace-of-mind from the thumb safety. The DAO trigger on the Kahr makes it uncannily (is that a word?) similar to a revolver; the trigger pull IS a manual safety.
My youngest (42) daughter carries a P365 with a manual safety. Her 14 year old son shoots with it, too. Both of them are well-versed in the manual of arms for that hardware. Both are also well-versed in the 4 general rules of firearms safety. Neither of them will confuse a manual (or passive) safety built into a firearm with proper SAFE handling of said equipment. That said, it is a constant battle to make them constantly aware. Stupid happens. Stay

It is good that you have only witnessed good safe professional gun handling in your circle. However, experience around lots of gun owners shooting and handling guns in competition, training and casual plinkers alike most every day, I find mucho gun handling errors. The worst ones are often self acclaimed “good” shooters” with years of so called Practice.

I’ll do me.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This was not directed toward me, but in my opinion the annoying little thing on Glock triggers serves one purpose: to irritate my trigger finger. Safety? Only in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY event that something reaches 1/8" into the trigger guard, and NOT 1/4", where it will pull both the trigger and the annoyance. Don't get me wrong, my G21g4 is the easiest shooting .45 ACP pistol I've ever fired. I love it, except for the annoyance in the center of the trigger. It would be a better gun with the annoyance.

No. It's a drop safety. The trigger dicky moves along a different plane than the trigger itself, meaning it can't do an inertial pull like was causing most incidents of P320 drop fires.

Secondarily, it helps prevent unintended discharges from 'trigger checks' where a nervous person subconsciously touches the trigger to satisfy themselves it's still there/still real. Much like people who've takena a lot of money out of the ATM will subconsciously tap their wallet or a person knew to carrying will tap their gun. Nobody thinks they do it, but a lot of people do. With a trigger check, it tends to be on the side of the trigger.

 

[Bassat]

It is good that you have only witnessed good safe professional gun handling in your circle. However, experience around lots of gun owners shooting and handling guns in competition, training and casual plinkers alike most every day, I find mucho gun handling errors. The worst ones are often self acclaimed “good” shooters” with years of so called Practice.

I’ll do me.

My immediate circle is very small. Me, daughter, grandson. So yeah, we really work on gun safety. Work on it; all of us still make small slip-ups from time to time. Which is exactly why we watch each other. We always get 2 lanes at whatever place we are shooting. 1 shooter per lane, and one unofficial RSO to watch the other two. My 14 year old grandson was shy about correcting me and/or his mother at first. Not anymore. Together we make our trip as safe as possible. Spotting for each other makes all of us more safety conscious. I've seen some pretty atrocious safety breeches at Kodiak, and Range USA. When they are busy, 1 RSO is not sufficient. Groups of 3-4 (usually) younger folks using one lane is particularly bothersome. I get jack-assing around with your buddies, just not with gun, and not in the lane next me, please.

 

[Bassat]

No. It's a drop safety. The trigger dicky moves along a different plane than the trigger itself, meaning it can't do an inertial pull like was causing most incidents of P320 drop fires.

Secondarily, it helps prevent unintended discharges from 'trigger checks' where a nervous person subconsciously touches the trigger to satisfy themselves it's still there/still real. Much like people who've takena a lot of money out of the ATM will subconsciously tap their wallet or a person knew to carrying will tap their gun. Nobody thinks they do it, but a lot of people do. With a trigger check, it tends to be on the side of the trigger.

Your post made me look up Glock's firing pin safety. Thanks for making me educate myself. The striker (firing pin) safety IS indeed mechanically linked to the trigger. The 'dongle' prevents trigger movement. Without trigger movement, the firing pin safety stays engaged. Period. Drop safety most assuredly. I never knew that. Now I dislike my G21g4's trigger dongle just a bit less. I still find it annoying on my trigger finger.
BTW, hasn't Sig continued to have 'drop' problems with the P320 even with the new lower mass trigger?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BTW, hasn't Sig continued to have 'drop' problems with the P320 even with the new lower mass trigger?

Yes, but at reduced rates.

 

[Creedmoor]

BTW, hasn't Sig continued to have 'drop' problems with the P320 even with the new lower mass trigger?

Nope