Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

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    Libertarian01

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    An idea popped into my head. I've been drinking some wine so perhaps vino veritas applies, or perhaps a simple insight...

    I really don't know.

    I do know this: that I overall believe that the USA, and by default Americans, embodies a basically good and just viewpoint, and that Russia and by default Russians embody a basically cruel and evil viewpoint.

    Here is my slightly inebriated logic. For over 200 years Americans have embraced, to a greater and lesser extent over the decades, that every human being has value. That life and living is good. That letting other live, so long as they do not threaten us, is the right thing to do. The very foundation of our country, culture, and social identity is based upon a governing idea that all men are created equal, that no one needs fear their government, that it is right and just for citizens to oppose tyranny either without or within.

    Have we fallen short of our ideals? Of course we have. We have slaughter innocents. We have oppressed minorities. We have done wrong to those who do not deserve it. But we also ARE ASHAMED of it when we do. We eventually move toward balancing the scales of injustice with justice. We acknowledge our wrongs and look to correct them.

    Russians, on the other hand, nave been raised under Czars and Royals. They have been oppressed to the point that they are culturally a peasant peoples. Their entire culture pre-revolution was one of simple survival and doing whatever you needed to in order to survive.

    Post revolution? God have mercy on them all! A Soviet system that placed the group above the individual. That encouraged family to spy on family in order to preserve the State. A generational culture that taught them that anything they did to survive was acceptable. A society living in abject fear for generations of thinking or saying the wrong thing, because "they" could (and WOULD) come for you when caught. To fear everyone and be slippery as an eel to survive.

    What has that created in them? Today, they embrace brutality. They are NOT ashamed of the creation of torture chambers, even those created specifically for children. They have no qualms about stealing children from their families. They embrace whatever horror or brutality their people perpetrate on others because they know no better.

    Is it their fault? Does it matter? Lenin, Stalin, Malenkov, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko. 1922 - 1985. 63 years before Gorbachev tries to do some minor reforms. 63 years of millions of deaths, deprivation, and oppression. That's three (3) generations of families raised under one of the most brutal and totalitarian systems ever to exist in the 20th century. Three generations taught to backstab and abuse anyone around you so long as you survived.

    During the same period Americans embraced the individual carving out their own destiny. That any man could make something of himself and rise to the top. The American way encouraged and encourages individual initiative, creativity, and thinking outside the box.

    Is it the Russians fault that they are an evil culture? Does it matter? If there is a rabid dog in your neighborhood does it matter to you how it became rabid, or do you just shoot it and put it down?

    1979 - Afghanistan
    1991 - Georgia
    1992 - Moldova/Transnistria
    1992 - Ossetia-Alania
    1992 - Tajikistan
    1994 - Chechnya
    1999 - Dagastan
    2008 - Georgia Again
    2009 - North Caucasus
    2014 - Ukraine
    2022 - Ukraine Again

    I would submit that Russian culture is evil due to 63 years of Soviet tyranny. I would also submit that it does not matter. No amount of appeasement will stop Russian aggression until a bullet is put through its skull.

    Chamberlain taught us what appeasement brings. We must learn from history so as not to repeat its mistakes.

    Regards,

    Doug

    PS - Do try to not type a coherent thought while drinking. The number of spelling errors that needs correcting takes lots of time...:buddies:

    PPS - I'm not the one on the right - yet.:D
     

    smokingman

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    Restricting SWIFT access was idiotic. I said it the day we did it that we had killed the US dollar reserve status. Looks like I was correct.
    The US Dollar is down 11% since September of 2022. That will lead to a spike in inflation. Countries that make things still want to earn the same profit they would have before the dollar dropped 11%(and it is still declining). There will be pain.


    Even institutions we helped fund like the world bank and IMF are moving away from the US dollar and SDR's,with the IMF creating a new currency just last week that is set to fill the void as the US dollar is no longer dominante in global trade. When the global banking system turns it back on the US dollar for global trade you know we have a problem. The new Unicoin as it is called is a stop gap created so any country can trade with another in local currencies by using it as a mediator on price. IE a reserve currency,a role the US dollar had filled for a long time.

    China and many other countries are selling off US Treasuries and the pace is accelerating. Japan is already the largest foriegn holder as of the end of 2022,but even they have been selling to prop up the Yen(zero interest rates poster child for how wrong it can go,and the collapse of the Yen is just starting).

    It really is as if children are running DC based on feelings and emotion...or hell bent on the destruction of the US. Either way the result is a loss for the USA.

    Over 40% of all US stock is owned by foreigners,and denominated in US dollars. Selling them is even easier than selling US Treasuries. When that shoe drops the PPT will not be able to hold the house of cards up. Losing reserve status is by far the dumbest thing we ever did to ourselves(ok,second dumbest the first was giving a private bank control of our currency creation).
     
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    :dunno:

    I think you just made my point for me...Russia is the both professed and active aggressor in attacking their neighbors and has been since before the USSR was a thing. They only feel threatened because they are planning on invading (again) the countries that are joining NATO.

    Maybe we're just in violent agreement here but NATO is not a threat to Russia...unless Russia attacks a NATO member.
    I think we're mostly in agreement. Certainly with regards to what needs to be done about Russia right now; if anything, I'd like to see the USA and other NATO members take more of a hardline approach to stopping Russia than they have up until now. The situation is just so bad right now that I think it calls for it. So in the present moment, I fully support NATO accepting Russia's neighboring countries as members, and stationing troops there defensively, or maybe even further action against Russia.

    I think where we (maybe?) disagree, though, is that I don't really support expansion of NATO as a general rule; so if Russia weren't posing such an active threat to their neighbors, I would tend to side with their complaint about having NATO members on their borders. It'd be one thing if NATO really were nothing more than a promise to defend each other if invaded, but when you start collective military actions like sharing weapons and stationing another country's troops in your borders, that is something that can too easily be turned to aggressive uses.

    It may seem silly to debate such a hypothetical scenario, given the circumstances (and maybe it is) but the fact is that from what I can tell, most NATO member countries, while they are certainly not as bad as Russia yet, are on a negative societal trajectory, one leading toward a more socialist/communist/collectivized system of governance. So while I certainly don't see America as an evil aggressor right now, I fear that I may live to see that change in my lifetime, given the direction our government is going in right now.

    So from my perspective it's important to keep my argument focused on how the necessity of the situation calls for greater involvement on America's part (and NATO, too) in stopping Russia, despite the downsides, rather than denying that those downsides exist, because otherwise the discussion can just get bogged down by those who want to simply recite the litany of NATO's faults, as if that somehow made Russia the good guy.

    (Well drat, now I've really broken my resolution to keep my posts more concise. If I ever really had one...)
     

    daddyusmaximus

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    "You served my father in the drone wars...'

    I keep seeing stuff about all the drones in use over there. This will surely be know as The Great Drone War.
    May sound funny, but it's scarry what this kind of warfare is capable of.
    Feel like I need to start a thread... "What's the best way to down a drone?"

     

    actaeon277

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    "You served my father in the drone wars...'

    I keep seeing stuff about all the drones in use over there. This will surely be know as The Great Drone War.
    May sound funny, but it's scarry what this kind of warfare is capable of.
    Feel like I need to start a thread... "What's the best way to down a drone?"




    A channel called 'Dust' had this 3 years ago

     

    smokingman

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    cause you wear blue shirts :dunno:
    Almost never and I do not wear jeans.

    George Carlin had the same problem. I would insert the bit he does about it but can not seem to find it.


    8 UPAB-500V bombs dropped today in Ukraine and one 1500. Due to US censorship measures I can not post the link to the videos(on Turkish,Saudi,India,Russia,and much of the worlds media -US and EU). It is not just certain sources being blocked from the US viewer,it goes far beyond that.
     

    daddyusmaximus

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    A channel called 'Dust' had this 3 years ago


    Saw that back then... Scared the bejesus out of me now when I hear all this talk of AI. Just who programs those little buggers? Even if they weren't AI, but just little drones... I can see the news now saying how their police drones took out the "bad guy" who had an... wait for it... we've all heard it before... "arsenal" of guns and ammo.
     
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