Practice and Pressure Points

[iChokePeople]

I'll just leave it at this: Whatever you're using, whatever you think is the cat's meow, try it against fully-resisting opponents who are big, strong, and trying to hurt you. If you can make it work against them, good on you and it. If they're 12, or 120 lbs, or not FULLY resisting, not actively trying to hurt you, have an interest in making it work, etc, you're not really testing it. I've never personally seen someone who could make pain/compliance techniques work this way, despite having LOTS of people try them.

 

[Chelise]

So, how do you suggest simulating that kind of situation?

 

[bingley]

Kids, don't do this at home. Find a legitimate instructor, enroll in his classes, and spend at least a few years learning unarmed fighting. Internet information and some willing but foolish friends won't get you very far.

 

[obijohn]

I think that the OP just wants to inflict pain.

Plus, if ICP is trying to do you harm, full speed/full contact, just shoot him. Only way.

 

[ModernGunner]

...The person I used it on was a minor at the time I literally could not strike back at (I was 19, they were 17).

Just curious, but why not? Based on your wording of "strike back", that means they have already struck you, have committed a battery against you, and you would thus be defending yourself.

Thanks!

 

[AD Marc]

Just curious, but why not? Based on your wording of "strike back", that means they have already struck you, have committed a battery against you, and you would thus be defending yourself.

Thanks!

Having known a bunch of people who were teachers, juvenile corrections officers, inpatient psych workers, etc, I can tell you that even if attacked by a minor, hauling off and hitting them means your career is dunzo. Soft hands only.

 

[Double T]

Control and restraint techniques aside, If you are not engaged in a sporting activity, joint "locks" are better known as "breaks," a distinction that changes matters slightly.

I wouldn't imagine a wrist lock would be terribly effective in MMA, since everyone is taped and gloved.

And small joint manipulations are barred.

 

[Double T]

Just curious, but why not? Based on your wording of "strike back", that means they have already struck you, have committed a battery against you, and you would thus be defending yourself.

Thanks!

Because any charge of battery or assault and I lose my career and livelihood. It also helped that the kid almost ran me over in a car and I had about 12 witnesses including a business manager calling the police.

Do whatever it takes to stop the threat, no more. In my case, joint manipulation and taking the person to the ground was enough, and I never struck back. Took three punches to the head to get in and take the prick down, but I knew I couldn't hit the ****er.

As I've said (in other threads), the best self defense tactic is to not get in a position to have to use your training. Just so happens that I had to, and thankfully knew enough to not wind up behind bars myself.


Also, typically ANY altercation with a minor means the adult goes to county. Thankfully the manager was on the phone and made a statement that I subdued him without striking back, and that when I let him up when I saw the lights that he punched me in the back of the head as I was walking inside and then he fled and got pulled over a block from his house.

Everyone saying that I should try this stuff on a such and such size guy need to understand that you need to do whatever you can to stop a fight. If that means you can subdue and attacker with joint manipulation, or break it altogether...then they are done or they won't hit you with it and you have a soft place to focus.

Would love to spar a guy much bigger than me again with full force, just never have anyone come over.

 

[jdhaines]

Kids, don't do this at home. Find a legitimate instructor, enroll in his classes, and spend at least a few years learning unarmed fighting. Internet information and some willing but foolish friends won't get you very far.

I'd disagree. I've done just this. I don't know about foolish friends, but I went from zero to more than zero abilities in these areas by what is traditionally seen as youtube training. Get some guys, watch some DVDs and videos, and start practicing. It's certainly slower and you have to sort of test and correct if you end up going down a path that isn't helping, but you can get better. Professional training is the ideal...but in this time in history when all the information of the world is available on a mobile phone...use it. It's out there waiting.

I would say professional training > training group training > nothing. Every minute you spend actually doing some BJJ, wrestling, boxing, judo, sambo, (insert alive martial art here) is a minute you're closer to winning a confrontation. As the guys in the training group saw last weekend...only having a gun without verbal or hands-on skills can lead you to some seriously bad situations.

If you aren't familiar with the term "aliveness" take a look at these two links, it'll be worth your time.

SBGi - Straight Blast Gym International

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_(martial_arts)

 

[iChokePeople]

And small joint manipulations are barred.

Wrist locks are not small joint manipulation in any MMA organization I know of. They're talking fingers and toes. You can go after wrists and ankles all you like.

 

[bingley]

I'd disagree. I've done just this. I don't know about foolish friends, but I went from zero to more than zero abilities in these areas by what is traditionally seen as youtube training. Get some guys, watch some DVDs and videos, and start practicing. It's certainly slower and you have to sort of test and correct if you end up going down a path that isn't helping, but you can get better. Professional training is the ideal...but in this time in history when all the information of the world is available on a mobile phone...use it. It's out there waiting.

In martial training, you don't look at just the stuff you get right, but also the stuff you get wrong. The latter gets you killed. Most inexperienced people can't see the stuff that is wrong, whether in the video or in their imitation. Sure, you can learn to do something, but you'll be like a vase with holes: you will "hold water" -- temporarily -- but at the end you may just lose it all.

Ultimately, martial training is not about individual techniques, but about the strategies and tactics for deploying the techniques. You also need to develop the right combative mindset. The only way to get these things is to study with someone who's been there and done it, or with someone in a lineage that has carefully preserved the knowledge and experience of someone who's been there and done it.

So, OK, you can take a few steps forward watching videos. But if that's all, you are leaving your standard too low. I'm not being a snob. I'm telling you you're just learning enough to get you killed. You need more.

 

[David Rose]

In martial training, you don't look at just the stuff you get right, but also the stuff you get wrong. The latter gets you killed. Most inexperienced people can't see the stuff that is wrong, whether in the video or in their imitation. Sure, you can learn to do something, but you'll be like a vase with holes: you will "hold water" -- temporarily -- but at the end you may just lose it all.

Ultimately, martial training is not about individual techniques, but about the strategies and tactics for deploying the techniques. You also need to develop the right combative mindset. The only way to get these things is to study with someone who's been there and done it, or with someone in a lineage that has carefully preserved the knowledge and experience of someone who's been there and done it.

So, OK, you can take a few steps forward watching videos. But if that's all, you are leaving your standard too low. I'm not being a snob. I'm telling you you're just learning enough to get you killed. You need more.

You seem to represent skill and mindset as physical things that are bestowed by those who have "btdt". They are not. Those who have gone before can only relay information. Good or bad information. It's up to you to pick and choose and become whatever you are willing to put in the time and effort to become.

I think you are limiting the power of ideas and communication. You lose out when you decide there are classes and groups of people and mediums from which you can not learn. Direct interaction is good, but learning is learning no matter the source.

Second, the standard you use to judge your performance, and method you use to gain knowledge about a skill are not necessarily connected.

 

[bingley]

You seem to represent skill and mindset as physical things that are bestowed by those who have "btdt". They are not. Those who have gone before can only relay information. Good or bad information. It's up to you to pick and choose and become whatever you are willing to put in the time and effort to become.

I agree with this. But you need to get that information from a good source, and you need to make that information your own. Why is the source important? Sportive fighting is different from street fighting, and street fighting is different from combat. If you take the stuff you discover in the backyard sparring with your friends, you may discover it doesn't work in the streets, or when trained people are coming at you.

I think you are limiting the power of ideas and communication. You lose out when you decide there are classes and groups of people and mediums from which you can not learn. Direct interaction is good, but learning is learning no matter the source.

Hmm, perhaps I'm more reacting to the fact that there are too many Youtube videos that purport to offer "information" (including some posted here), and I'd take a look at them and realize the instructor is doing something fundamentally wrong that could get him killed. It's often something other than the technique itself, the quality of which is often hard to judge without feeling it hands on. Inexperienced people can't see what I see.

If you're satisfied with a low skill level, I can't tell you what to do with your life. But since this is a forum on tactics and training, go find good people to teach you and to train with. I don't know why men find it so hard to recognize that they weren't born knowing how to shoot or fight with their hands or knives.

 

[Double T]

I agree with this. But you need to get that information from a good source, and you need to make that information your own. Why is the source important? Sportive fighting is different from street fighting, and street fighting is different from combat. If you take the stuff you discover in the backyard sparring with your friends, you may discover it doesn't work in the streets, or when trained people are coming at you.



Hmm, perhaps I'm more reacting to the fact that there are too many Youtube videos that purport to offer "information" (including some posted here), and I'd take a look at them and realize the instructor is doing something fundamentally wrong that could get him killed. It's often something other than the technique itself, the quality of which is often hard to judge without feeling it hands on. Inexperienced people can't see what I see.

If you're satisfied with a low skill level, I can't tell you what to do with your life. But since this is a forum on tactics and training, go find good people to teach you and to train with. I don't know why men find it so hard to recognize that they weren't born knowing how to shoot or fight with their hands or knives.

Don't take the video I posted too literally. All that was was to demo the actual flexion and stuff associated with the two most beneficial locks I have seen. Where MA training gets it right is engraining in your muscle memory the many ways to transition to them.

Just like shooting, anyone can "learn" from watching a video; but only someone with proper knowledge of the form can tell you that if you punch the way you are practicing you won't transfer much energy and will probably break your wrist (for example).

There are also good MA schools, and also many who merely want a paycheck. Choose wisely

 

[Jackson]

Hmm, perhaps I'm more reacting to the fact that there are too many Youtube videos that purport to offer "information" (including some posted here), and I'd take a look at them and realize the instructor is doing something fundamentally wrong that could get him killed. It's often something other than the technique itself, the quality of which is often hard to judge without feeling it hands on. Inexperienced people can't see what I see.

Can you give any examples of videos posted here on INGO and tell us what's wrong with them? What is your background and experience level? I am always curious what others with more experience might be seeing that I am not.

 

[bingley]

Can you give any examples of videos posted here on INGO and tell us what's wrong with them? What is your background and experience level? I am always curious what others with more experience might be seeing that I am not.

Look, critiquing something fairly and responsibly is hard enough to do in person. To do so in public, in a way that requires sharing hard-earned martial knowledge for anyone to read -- why would I do that? There could be criminals reading this stuff. There is quite a bit of advice I could give about pressure points, but I won't. That's why I've focused on my input on what martial training is, and on urging people to get instruction.

I am going on to two decades of dedication to martial arts. Half of the time was spent doing an unarmed composite style that evolved (and was tested) in an inner-city environment. I also did more esoteric, traditional stuff to round out the training. The second half was spent on weapons arts when I realized I'd accrued too many injuries to continue getting thrown, locked, etc., if I want to walk without trouble when I get old.

 

[jdhaines]

In martial training, you don't look at just the stuff you get right, but also the stuff you get wrong. The latter gets you killed. Most inexperienced people can't see the stuff that is wrong, whether in the video or in their imitation. Sure, you can learn to do something, but you'll be like a vase with holes: you will "hold water" -- temporarily -- but at the end you may just lose it all.

Ultimately, martial training is not about individual techniques, but about the strategies and tactics for deploying the techniques. You also need to develop the right combative mindset. The only way to get these things is to study with someone who's been there and done it, or with someone in a lineage that has carefully preserved the knowledge and experience of someone who's been there and done it.

So, OK, you can take a few steps forward watching videos. But if that's all, you are leaving your standard too low. I'm not being a snob. I'm telling you you're just learning enough to get you killed. You need more.

Emphasis mine throughout.

This is the traditional "bow to sensei" stuff that pisses me off. In the traditional arts where no one ever worked with any energy, you had to trust the master's word. Therefore it made sense to work with a true master. Now days, people are bringing back the old style of "alive" training meaning real resistance. I don't need some 20 degree black belt to explain if something is going to work. I need to put in the time with the principal or technique then test it with real resistance. If I can accomplish my task against a new guy who knows nothing...that tells me something. If I can accomplish it against someone who has been doing this for 20 years...that tells me something else. If I tried to learn a system all by myself I would be ineffective. The beauty is this is 2013. We have access to millions of hours of video from the greatest minds in any combat style you choose. Some is free, some is paid, but it's all available.

I agree with this. But you need to get that information from a good source, and you need to make that information your own. Why is the source important? Sportive fighting is different from street fighting, and street fighting is different from combat. If you take the stuff you discover in the backyard sparring with your friends, you may discover it doesn't work in the streets, or when trained people are coming at you.

Hmm, perhaps I'm more reacting to the fact that there are too many Youtube videos that purport to offer "information" (including some posted here), and I'd take a look at them and realize the instructor is doing something fundamentally wrong that could get him killed. It's often something other than the technique itself, the quality of which is often hard to judge without feeling it hands on. Inexperienced people can't see what I see.

If you're satisfied with a low skill level, I can't tell you what to do with your life. But since this is a forum on tactics and training, go find good people to teach you and to train with. I don't know why men find it so hard to recognize that they weren't born knowing how to shoot or fight with their hands or knives.

I'm with Jackson. Show me.

How are any of these truly different? They all require me to go against another person (or persons) with real intensity, real resistance, and real ill will. I will be trying to accomplish a task while they are trying to stop me and accomplish their task. In sport fighting there may be rules to protect from permanent damage, but the goals are the same. You show me a master of pressure points or CHI and I"ll show you someone who would get their ass handed to them by someone with 6 months of BJJ, wrestling, or boxing. There is just too much evidence out there to believe anything different. Look for "MMA vs" on youtube and see how it works out. The navy seals are working with top MMA competitors to learn how to fight. The army combatives now look almost like UFC fighting. Training with aliveness and real resistance is taking over...and for good reason.

I'm told that all TMAs originally started with real resistance training and it's slowly faded from most. Shame on them.

Look, critiquing something fairly and responsibly is hard enough to do in person. To do so in public, in a way that requires sharing hard-earned martial knowledge for anyone to read -- why would I do that? There could be criminals reading this stuff. There is quite a bit of advice I could give about pressure points, but I won't. That's why I've focused on my input on what martial training is, and on urging people to get instruction.

I am going on to two decades of dedication to martial arts. Half of the time was spent doing an unarmed composite style that evolved (and was tested) in an inner-city environment. I also did more esoteric, traditional stuff to round out the training. The second half was spent on weapons arts when I realized I'd accrued too many injuries to continue getting thrown, locked, etc., if I want to walk without trouble when I get old.

So your advice on pressure points is so deadly and effective that you can't discuss them publicly because criminals may see them? This is the old tired TMA rhetoric which is going the way of the dodo. People are seeing through it and it's only a matter of time until it's snuffed out. You know what I say? Show me. Take someone who is giving you real energy, really trying to stop you from hurting them, really working to impose their will and shut them down with a pressure point. Don't pull a BrianITC and pretend punch a student and have them fly back 20 feet...that stuff has been shown to be a sham from the old non-touching chi demonstrations...well and physics.

I'm open to any types of useful techniques, but only when I've seen they work on real resisting opponents.

I'm always excited to have new people posting ideas, but don't just drive by spouting that youtube is stupid, you can't learn without paying a bunch of money to an instructor with X number of black belts, pressure points are all the awesome and then back it up by saying that you trained for years in esoteric TMA stuff as proof. Find a single video of real TMA vs real X where TMA wins and I'll eat my words. By X I mean anyone from any other martial art that uses alive training. Sambo, judo, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, greco, etc as a start. It's funny how even with two guys from TMA start fighting...it ends up looking like butchered boxing and wrestling.

 

[bingley]

You attribute a lot of things to me that I don't actually think. I didn't say pressure points are good at all. I didn't say what I have to teach is so deadly and effective that I can't share them. As a matter of ethical principle, I won't share any knowledge for doing violence unless I have some assurance of the moral character of my audience. Incidentally, this is a principle I would encourage all of you to follow.

It's pointless to attempt to communicate with someone like you, jhaines. While we are in agreement on some issues, you are rude, disrespectful, and you imagine me to believe things that I don't believe in. I actually remember you behaving badly in fights with other people in INGO. You have shown me what you are, and you are not worthwhile.

 

[bingley]

Hey, is there a way to stop the site from showing someone's posts to you altogether? In the old days, we call that putting someone in your "kill file." I can't seem to figure this out in INGO.

 

[cedartop]

.
Ultimately, martial training is not about individual techniques, but about the strategies and tactics for deploying the techniques. You also need to develop the right combative mindset. The only way to get these things is to study with someone who's been there and done it, or with someone in a lineage that has carefully preserved the knowledge and experience of someone who's been there and done it.

..

I wanted to let Josh make his point before I jumped in. He is not untrained. He has had instruction from the likes of Southnarc, Mercop, and Myself. (probably others). He learned enough to build a basis for his philosophy of continuing to study what is important to him. Instead of tying himself down with an unnecessarily long TMA road, he has chosen to pick the most expedient method. Can we learn everything we need from video's? Of course not, you actually have to go out and not only put in the hours and sweat to master it, but pressure test it as well. If it passes the test against a truely resisting opponent say 90% of the time you are GTG. We are not talking "if, then", stuff here.

Anyway, Josh has come a looong way in a short amount of time doing it the way he is doing it, and has my confidence.