Our deer biologist s moving on...to Michigan

[trailrider]

I know from simple observation of the environment that most areas have far more deer than should be there.

So how many deer should I have on my 40 acres wooded, 150 acres tillable spot in Decatur County? And what is your source of simple observation?

 

[phylodog]

To my knowledge this is the first year that deer have been hunted in Eagle Creek park in a very long time, not sure what hunters would be complaining about deer numbers there.

Perhaps you ended up with a period where it was not intended. You said "There are plenty, plenty of deer". That is not the belief of many. If I misunderstood you I apologize.

I can assure you that a lack of effort is not part of my hunting routine. We start our preparations the end of June and don't stop working at it until the end of season. 140 hours in the stand last year and pretty close to that this year. I'm not wandering in to a 1/2 acre woodlot, sitting against a tree and expecting to tag a booner.

 

[One Shot One Kill]

I'm sorry, but someone saying "I have seen less deer than previous years, so the deer populations in this state must be down" is just about as right as the statement that "this very warm (or cold) winter is because of climate change"

The local population (or weather) doesn't reflect the statewide population (or global climate).

 

[remauto1187]

 

[Willie]

God did not make all deer or turkey habitat alike.....

 

[JimH]

I'm sorry, but someone saying "I have seen less deer than previous years, so the deer populations in this state must be down" is just about as right as the statement that "this very warm (or cold) winter is because of climate change"

The local population (or weather) doesn't reflect the statewide population (or global climate).

And about as right as someone saying they worked in conservation because they had a summer job dumping garbage at the city park.

 

[phylodog]

I'm sorry, but someone saying "I have seen less deer than previous years, so the deer populations in this state must be down" is just about as right as the statement that "this very warm (or cold) winter is because of climate change"

The local population (or weather) doesn't reflect the statewide population (or global climate).

I see. But someone who almost has a degree in biology and has spent so much time in the wilds of Indiana to never have seen a coyote can step in, make a subjective statement about there being plenty of deer, provide no evidence to define or support that statement and it should be the end of the discussion. Seems legit.

Perhaps the deer have simply evolved to the point that not only are they now invisible but so is their waste and they've figured out how to leave no prints in the mud or any evidence whatsoever of their existence. Maybe the several hundred folks I've read statements from or interacted with personally are just imagining things. An almost biologist says so.

 

[jbell_64]

This is my personal observation and is nothing more than that. The areas I frequent have tons of deer sign, but I rarely see a deer. Is it possible that we we as hunters have selectively removed deer that have a genetic predisposition for moving during the day and created (at least in localized areas) deer that are completely nocturnal? I understand this idea is a little out in left field. However, I don't think it is completely impossible.

 

[ghuns]

Deer numbers on my little slice of Indiana are definitely down but quality is WAY up. When I started deer hunting in the 80s, to see anything with antlers was a big deal. The last two years, we have had several 160"+ deer walkin around. When you thin out the doe herd, the ones that remain have a much better chance of getting knocked up by one of those 160 inchers than some little scrub.

There was a period of time several years ago where I could almost guarantee that if you went to our little patch of woods at sunrise, you could be sittin in your lazyboy by noon with a dead deer hangin in the garage. It would be a doe or a little 4 point, but it wasn't really deer hunting, it was deer shooting. We now have to work a little harder, spend a little more time in the woods, but I don't find that to be a bad thing.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

According to Figure 2 of the aforementioned summary document (http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files...sonsummary.pdf) by IDNR, deer populations are about where they were in 1997. Sighting data by hunters in your area are important to you, but on a state-wide level hard data is what carries the weight.

So, what we know is, things population wise have been fairly steady for about 15 to 17 years. We also know more and more of these deer are concentrated in non-managed areas. I hunt NSWC Crane and have noticed (as has everyone here) a severe drop in daylight deer sightings, but have my own conclusions as the data from our own Crane Natural Resources reflect steady herd populations that mirror the state data. I believe in the NSWC Crane deer herd more and more deer are concentrated in previously logged areas - thick brush, difficult to impossible to hunt. Logging has increased and thus underbrush is hiding more and more deer. They have food, water and cover in more places without ever having to show themselves, especially older more wise bucks.

Conclusion: Both are right. Populations are steady, but sightings are down for a number of reasons.

On coyotes: I shoot everyone I can because I truly believe their exploding numbers are responsible for low numbers of quail, rabbits, grouse, etc. in my area.

 

[One Shot One Kill]

I see. But someone who almost has a degree in biology and has spent so much time in the wilds of Indiana to never have seen a coyote can step in, make a subjective statement about there being plenty of deer, provide no evidence to define or support that statement and it should be the end of the discussion. Seems legit.

Perhaps the deer have simply evolved to the point that not only are they now invisible but so is their waste and they've figured out how to leave no prints in the mud or any evidence whatsoever of their existence. Maybe the several hundred folks I've read statements from or interacted with personally are just imagining things. An almost biologist says so.

Hah, and I thought I was worked up. By your argument, your "proof" is also heresay and null; it provides no evidence. I provided links showing DNR deer data, which seems to support populations are not in fact significantly lower than previous years.
My "almost" degree is irrelevant. I mentioned this... It has nothing to do with this argument, why do you bring it up? I only did to try to say that degrees aren't proof of anything in a debate... and it seems you missed that point.
Show me proof populations are down "I see less deer, My buddies see less deer" is not proof. Just like my "I've never seen a coyote" isn't proof.

Some are laughing at me never seeing a coyote, like it's a joke. Its an example to show that what you see or think you see may not necessarily be the truth... I could say "I don't see coyotes, therefore there must be less coyotes". P.S. I KNOW that coyotes are very abundant in this state. Don't misunderstand me, I'm just saying the situation with people seeing less deer is not much different, in both cases it may be location.. or not, who knows? I don't... I just know that data supports that populations are doing pretty well.

@JimH; who had a summer job dumping in the park ? I don't understand how this relates to the conversation...?

 

[phylodog]

You're far from capable of getting me worked up junior.

 

[greg]

Not sure if we ever had a Female in this position ....looks like things are changing !!!

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/falyn-owens/32/80b/318

 

[possumpacker]

coyotes first moved into west central in. inmid 70's. icaught the first one anybody had ever seen or heard in this area in 1976. by 1980 the there were many. about this time the fur market was booming any thing with fur was worth big money' even yotes and thier numbers were kept in check until the market crashed oct 87 and you couldnt hardly give fur away. around 1990 there became a demand for live trapped coyotes to supply running pens in the southern U.s. at 50 to 100 dollars a coyote.I believe this kept thier numbers in check until nov. 2007 when the in. DNR under pressure from animal rights and federal govt stopped out of state sales of live coyote. I wont argue whether this was right or wrong but my concern in 2007 as it is today is that we have large predator with no natural enemys and no control and without the $$$$ as incentive the problem will get worse.

 

[Zoub]

This is quite an informative thread. A fine mix of opinion and scholars jousting.

I have a couple questions if I may?

What is the likelihood of a threat to the deer population materializing faster than expected? Chronic Wasting Disease or Hemorrhagic Disease spreading faster due to unique environmental things?

Is it normal for folks such as our former man, Chad Stewart, to leave so quickly with so little announcement?

it seems the fastest way to spread the disease is swapping spit. So concentrated numbers of deer feeding in the same area, like bait piles or people who feed deer to watch them are examples. In the areas of Wisconsin where baiting for hunting is allowed, it is tightly regulated. The "politics" of managing these diseases is in itself controversial along with everything connected to managing the deer population.

I don't know this Chad but there is just no comparison to doing his work in Indiana versus a Northern tier state. Indiana has a lot of good people, up North has everything else, plus Wolves. That right there adds a huge dimension to managing the fantasy Elk herds along with the Moose. He will be in the middle of it with budget, technology toys and a Govt. pension when he retires in the middle of the wilderness he loves. We have a family member that didn't live too far from you, a Biologist who just retired from IDNR, he is temporarily living in our house in Indy. Come spring he will be buying up here by us, the UP or Montana. Once you Go North, you don't go back.

As for Indiana deer hunting, I have had people here in WI offer me thousands of $$$ to set them up on good deer hunts in Indiana. One mans trash is another mans treasure. You guys can't imagine what a decimated deer herd really looks like.

 

[craigkim]

it seems the fastest way to spread the disease is swapping spit. So concentrated numbers of deer feeding in the same area, like bait piles or people who feed deer to watch them are examples. In the areas of Wisconsin where baiting for hunting is allowed, it is tightly regulated. The "politics" of managing these diseases is in itself controversial along with everything connected to managing the deer population.

I don't know this Chad but there is just no comparison to doing his work in Indiana versus a Northern tier state. Indiana has a lot of good people, up North has everything else, plus Wolves. That right there adds a huge dimension to managing the fantasy Elk herds along with the Moose. He will be in the middle of it with budget, technology toys and a Govt. pension when he retires in the middle of the wilderness he loves. We have a family member that didn't live too far from you, a Biologist who just retired from IDNR, he is temporarily living in our house in Indy. Come spring he will be buying up here by us, the UP or Montana. Once you Go North, you don't go back.

As for Indiana deer hunting, I have had people here in WI offer me thousands of $$$ to set them up on good deer hunts in Indiana. One mans trash is another mans treasure. You guys can't imagine what a decimated deer herd really looks like.

If you are just asking me to imagine, I CAN... pretty vividly... as if I have seen it recently. As someone else mentioned, no deer where I am hunting looks the same as no deer anywhere from my perspective. It looks like 45 hours sitting in a tree watching squirrels running around and freezing my butt off!

Just having fun. I get your point.

Hopefully it improves for me in the next few years by whatever means and for whatever reason. I really want to get my children interested in deer hunting and that's going to be a long shot at present rate.

 

[Mister K]

@One Shot One KIll... ("I see less deer, My buddies see less deer" is not proof.)... Why is this not proof? Am I a bad hunter, what about the rest? How do you conservationists figure out what the deer population is in a particular area, observation, wizardry? I know I'm being a smart*** here, sorry, but really, everyone I know isn't seeing the numbers. Your hunting/woods experience seems pretty limited, why should I believe you? Yeah I know you posted some link to some study. How do I get the deer back to my area? Assuming that they haven't mutated into nocturnal vampire deer, I don 't want any part of that!

 

[Willie]

coyotes first moved into west central in. inmid 70's. icaught the first one anybody had ever seen or heard in this area in 1976. by 1980 the there were many. about this time the fur market was booming any thing with fur was worth big money' even yotes and thier numbers were kept in check until the market crashed oct 87 and you couldnt hardly give fur away. around 1990 there became a demand for live trapped coyotes to supply running pens in the southern U.s. at 50 to 100 dollars a coyote.I believe this kept thier numbers in check until nov. 2007 when the in. DNR under pressure from animal rights and federal govt stopped out of state sales of live coyote. I wont argue whether this was right or wrong but my concern in 2007 as it is today is that we have large predator with no natural enemys and no control and without the $$$$ as incentive the problem will get worse.

^^^^
THIS

 

[bwframe]

Not sure if we ever had a Female in this position ....looks like things are changing !!!

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/falyn-owens/32/80b/318

Is she the new one for sure?
Cause I was gonna vote for 88GT...

 

[One Shot One Kill]

@mister k: It may very well be that your area (and phylodog's) has a struggling deer population. I never said it can't/doesn't happen; it's one reason why bonus anterless quotas are less/nonexistent in some counties. Besides expressing your concern to local dnr officials the most you can do is be picky on which deer you shoot and how many you take. I.e. Avoid yearlings/button bucks if possible, and take more mature deer, possibly also harvesting only 1 deer, or 1 less than you usually do at least; also, spread this idea to hunting buddies, encouraging them to help heal the herd. Data/Harvest reports indicate that OVERALL deer herds are doing good. That's what I think, but I'm not an official nor a proper biologist.
as for vamp-deer, I'm convinced deer in my area are those kind I had 90% of trail can pics over the last 3 years taken at night. But there are a ton of them !