Our deer biologist s moving on...to Michigan

[JimH]

I really don't know, but if the deer population, is so low, then why are they closing State Parks, for "special" hunts, with "sharpshooters" ?????

Probably for the same reason they raise the antlerless quota's and allow depradation shooting during the spring and summer when fawns are unable to survive on their own-to appease the insurance companies & farmers.I live and hunt around Versailles State Park and drive thru and around it almost daily.In the last week,while on vacation I saw a total of two deer in the park,and seven bald eagles.I imagine they will hunt the park again next year to keep that huge herd under control.FWIW,I think Chad Stewart tried to do a great job with our deer management but was not allowed to by his superiors.Wish him the best.

 

[phylodog]

Though that doesn't stop locals from shooting coyotes on sight to "protect the local huntable deer".

We kill all of them we can but it's more to protect the struggling turkey population.

 

[trailrider]

Over the years we have become very spoiled deer hunters...... I've deer hunted since 1968 and have seen ups and downs..mostly an upward trend. My first season I saw 6 deer all season. Now this year I've hunted about 25 times and seen deer every sit except two. I've seen as many as a dozen in one sit and as few as one. I still enjoy it seeing 1 to 12 ..or none at all.

The EHD in 2007 turned my deer hunting clock back to the 70s as I went 17 times straight to the stand without seeing a deer and some of that was on a well established food plot. . In 3 years it fully recovered. I don't care what kind of a deer manager you are EHD cant upset your's or the states plans big time.

The first coyote I ever saw in Indiana was in the early 80s. Now I see and hear them ALL the time. I did not see any does with twin fawns this year and my best guess is the coyotes are making a major impact on fawn recruitment.

I can guarantee you no one in this site or my own could do half the job that Chad has done. We do good to manage our own little parcels. much less state wide..

Chad "moving on" is Michigan's gain and our loss.

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Now that you mention it, it has been a couple of years since I've seen twin fawns at my place. I saw a coyote take a fawn a couple of years ago from my stand. The doe went NUTS. It was very disturbing. I pretty much agree with everything Willie said. When I first started deer hunting in the late 80's one of your buddies getting 1 deer was a big thing. Now it's a body count.

 

[88GT]

I'm one semester away from an biology ecology/conservation-oriented bachelor's degree. But that's irrelevant, my main point was that evidence supports that deer populations are rising. I figured someone with your background would have more to add to the situation, besides the systematic breakdown and ridicule of my post.
I don't have a problem being told I'm wrong, but doing so in a "neener-neener I'm obviously infallible because I'm/I have "such and such"" fashion contributes nothing to the conversation. I had an opportunity to learn from someone who may have more experience than me, but instead I was just shot down. Back down my toilet I go.

Newb, The last statement was pure chain-yankin' sarcasm. I just don't do purple. (I do really have those 2 degrees though.)

 

[Dirty Steve]

What evidence are they using to determine that deer numbers are on the rise in Indiana? Serious question as I have no idea. I would think that input from the thousands of hunters in this state who spend tens, if no hundreds of thousands of hours in the woods in the fall would carry some weight. As I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of those I spoke with during three weeks of hunting as well as reports from hunters across the state on several forums have overwhelmingly been dismal this year and last year wasn't much better.

This is my experience as well and is the experience of all of my friends hunting multiple counties around the State on private ground. This is by far the most dismal season I have had. I have been deer hunting in Indiana since about 1985. In the early 90's, it was not uncommon for me to see 10-20 deer per day on State ground. Once I found private ground to hunt, those numbers continued. By the early 2000's, deer sightings on State ground that I hunted had been cut in half, but were still about the same on private ground. About 10 years ago, the numbers on private ground started dropping as well. Did I just loose all of my hunting skill? Nope. I started my kids hunting, hunted less for myself and more for them. Ten years ago my kids thought they were in heaven seeing 8 deer a day. Fast forward to last year and my youngest is now seeing 1 or 2 a day. Jump to this year and he has now seen 7 deer the entire firearms season. This is on the same property that my oldest son was seeing 8 deer a day on when he started hunting about 10 years ago. Is the property over hunted? I'd say taking 1 - 2 mature bucks a year off of 120 acres is not over hunting. We are the only ones with permission to hunt that property and I can guarantee that no one is sneaking in. The adjacent properties experience about the same hunting pressure. The deer are just not there anymore. Nothing has changed in regards to crops or adjacent property use. The only change that is evident to me is an overall reduction in the deer herd in that area.

I drive back roads to work daily at about 4:30 AM. Same trend. Deer sightings on my 30 mile trip to work through Morgan, Brown and Monroe counties are WAY down. If deer numbers are not down in general, I must be missing something.

Dirty Steve

 

[Willie]

Yep... Spoiled. If'a hunter is seeing 20 deer a day I'd say that there too many deer there. The hunter is seeing only a very small portion of the deer herd.

 

[ScouT6a]

"I've never seen a coyote in Indiana"
My god man, Stevie Wonder saw a coyote in Indiana!

I don't know this Chad Stewart but if he was our deer biologist for the state for the past eight years, then I say good riddance to him and good luck to Michigan hunters.

 

[ghitch75]

We kill all of them we can but it's more to protect the struggling turkey population.

no struggling turkey population down here!!!!!.......had to stop on the way home yesterday to let 25 cross the road!!!!.......i wish they would have never turned them loose......all the game birds(grouse,woodcock and other ground laying birds) have been wiped out by the turkeys....haven't heard a grouse drum down here in over 10 years.....and no it wan't the coyotes that done the grouse in!!!!!.....i have seen ripped up nests from turkeys.....

 

[phylodog]

I know the flock is in great shape down south but I hunt Fountain County and I honestly believe that my partner killed the only gobbler on the 1000 acres last year. We scouted for a couple of days before season and hunted several days and the bird he killed was the only one we heard. We had a flock of ten hens wandering around during deer season this year so I'm sure there are gobblers somewhere but the numbers aren't where we would like them to be. To the point that I don't think we're going to take any from the farm this year. We've got a couple other places lined up for this spring.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

no struggling turkey population down here!!!!!.......had to stop on the way home yesterday to let 25 cross the road!!!!.......i wish they would have never turned them loose......all the game birds(grouse,woodcock and other ground laying birds) have been wiped out by the turkeys....haven't heard a grouse drum down here in over 10 years.....and no it wan't the coyotes that done the grouse in!!!!!.....i have seen ripped up nests from turkeys.....

When I first started deer hunting in Jackson County, in the late 1980's we didn't see any turkeys, but we saw plenty of grouse. Now it's the other way around, but I don't think the turkeys themselves are limiting the grouse so much as the change from managing for grouse to managing for turkeys that is most significant.

 

[Dirty Steve]

Yep... Spoiled. If'a hunter is seeing 20 deer a day I'd say that there too many deer there. The hunter is seeing only a very small portion of the deer herd.

Yep, I was spoiled. However, seeing deer is what got me interested and held my interest. It is difficult now to hold a young hunters interest when they hunt for an entire weekend, daylight to dark and do not see a single deer. I have killed enough deer in my hunting career and killed some really good ones. I primarily hunt out west now. I don't have a whole lot of interest in hunting in my home State now (other than turkeys and coyotes). What I want is for my kids, and others kids is for them to SEE deer when they hunt. Enough that it holds their interest and they continue to hunt as adults. Loosing young hunters due to lack of interest related to just not seeing deer is what mainly concerns me. Do they need to see 20,...not really....but multiple all day sits with no sightings WILL turn them off. That is something that we just can't have. New hunter recruitment is critical.

Dirty Steve

 

[One Shot One Kill]

Newb, The last statement was pure chain-yankin' sarcasm. I just don't do purple. (I do really have those 2 degrees though.)

Can't take a without first swallowing my pride .

On the turkeys conversation.. I've seen so many turkeys, some years it makes me wonder why I don't turkey hunt! Still never seen a coyote.. they don't seem to be bothering turkeys though.

P.S. I might try to hunt yotes this year after I put a deer or 2 in the freezer ^_^. If that fails, squirrels beware!!

 

[trailrider]

Can't take a without first swallowing my pride .

On the turkeys conversation.. I've seen so many turkeys, some years it makes me wonder why I don't turkey hunt! Still never seen a coyote.. they don't seem to be bothering turkeys though.

P.S. I might try to hunt yotes this year after I put a deer or 2 in the freezer ^_^. If that fails, squirrels beware!!

Ah yes..the skin thickens with the post count. I'm not a biologist but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night...I've lived at my place for 10 years. What I've noticed is that the deer population is definately decreasing ( 2 or 3 are taken each year by myself and 2 buddies), the coyote population is increasing, and the turkey population seems to be about the same. Never had a lot of turkeys but see them from time to time.

 

[craigkim]

And, the relationship of coyote populations and deer populations are further complicated by the fact that coyotes are not the most significant control mechanism of deer, and deer are not the primary prey of coyotes. The populations of coyote and deer will most likely have their ups and downs with sometimes very little effect one from the other.

Deer hunting was pretty disappointing the last few years. I have a family member who says, "well, they are just trying to reduce the deer to historical populations." BUT, he is a big pheasants forever guy. I reminded him that we know the historical population numbers of pheasants down to the exact bird. We going to try to reach that?

Bravo to you for pointing out that deer are not the primary prey of coyotes! I only have one degree focused in ecology/forestry from Purdue, but true predator prey relationships are pretty complicated. Too much stat for me to keep up with. One thing I remember is that you likely aren't going to see a true cyclical behavior in the populations given the variation in habitat . I can't name models or the effects anymore, but I feel that I have seen the effect of rising coyote populations. I don't see foxes anymore and fewer feral cats. Deer I don't know? We see coyotes on the property, but nothing eats the gut piles even when left for weeks?

Overall though, I am getting upset with the number of deer I am seeing,.. few, and feeling like the DNR is going to begin losing money from licensures in future generations if you have to hunt for 3 weeks to see a deer.

 

[spaniel]

There are plenty, plenty of deer. Both where I hunt in Bartholomew and Hendricks. The difference in the former is that 5-6 years ago, people were banging away all over so the deer were constantly moving and you saw a lot. The past 2-3 years, not sure if it's less hunters or people not letting hunters on, but there is very, very few hunters out there moving the deer. So they get smart quick and stay hunkered down. The past 2 seasons I sit all morning and see nothing. Then I get up and still-hunt the ditches and have 1-3 deer within an hour. They are there, you just have to actually look for them.

I only got 2 3-hour mornings in the field this year and had no problems taking a doe. I grew up in MI, and in that region the deer population was easily 2-3 times as high as here. This is no exaggeration. Yet hunters there also complain there are no deer, despite the fact that you can see through the woods from 6 feet on down as the deer have eaten the vegetation to the ground. Drive around a square mile block at dusk and you'll see 20-30 deer there.

 

[craigkim]

There are plenty, plenty of deer. Both where I hunt in Bartholomew and Hendricks. The difference in the former is that 5-6 years ago, people were banging away all over so the deer were constantly moving and you saw a lot. The past 2-3 years, not sure if it's less hunters or people not letting hunters on, but there is very, very few hunters out there moving the deer. So they get smart quick and stay hunkered down. The past 2 seasons I sit all morning and see nothing. Then I get up and still-hunt the ditches and have 1-3 deer within an hour. They are there, you just have to actually look for them.

I only got 2 3-hour mornings in the field this year and had no problems taking a doe. I grew up in MI, and in that region the deer population was easily 2-3 times as high as here. This is no exaggeration. Yet hunters there also complain there are no deer, despite the fact that you can see through the woods from 6 feet on down as the deer have eaten the vegetation to the ground. Drive around a square mile block at dusk and you'll see 20-30 deer there.

You need a hunting buddy?!? I do feel like down south it's better.

In DeKalb Co it's a different story.... from my experience. I remember 10 years ago counting 32 deer within sight of my stand on opening morning. What I mean isn't I saw 32 deer, I mean there were 32 deer in the woods that I was watching at one time. Multiple groups just browsing, grazing, even laying down. Now, I am lucky to see a deer. Why? I don't know? WE don't even see them in the fields like we used to from the road.

 

[bwframe]

This is quite an informative thread. A fine mix of opinion and scholars jousting.

I have a couple questions if I may?

What is the likelihood of a threat to the deer population materializing faster than expected? Chronic Wasting Disease or Hemorrhagic Disease spreading faster due to unique environmental things?

Is it normal for folks such as our former man, Chad Stewart, to leave so quickly with so little announcement?

 

[phylodog]

There are plenty, plenty of deer where here I hunt.

Fixed it and I'm happy for you. Does the situation in Bartholomew and Hendricks counties represent the other 90?

 

[spaniel]

Fixed it and I'm happy for you. Does the situation in Bartholomew and Hendricks counties represent the other 90?

Not sure if the sarcasm is intended, but why would experience in two counties represent the whole state -- I clearly implied no such thing -- and why would you try to imply I am saying such a thing?

The fact is, however, I moved here nearly a decade ago from somewhere with deer number far in excess of anything normal in Indiana. The closest I have seen is Eagle Creek Park, yet on a much larger scale. Yet even there hunters complained they did not see enough deer. Hunters are never happy with the number of deer they are seeing. A large share of hunters simply sit in a convenient spot and do no work to make the action happen, then complain there are no deer. So I pay little heed to people complaining that there are not enough deer when...as a biologist...I know from simple observation of the environment that most areas have far more deer than should be there.

When I was a young hunter, age 13-17, I was geeked if I even saw a deer every day. Much less if I got a good shot and harvested one every season. People complained there were no deer. A decade later hunting the same area, I'd go out with a 300 yard capable muzzleloader for a single weekend and take 5-6 deer. People still complained there were no deer. Another decade on since then I don't hunt there anymore as non-resident tags are ridiculous, but deer are even thicker. Yet I go back and still hear complaints on how there aren't enough deer...

 

[foamkiller]

Ya I would be pissed if I saw 20 deer in a day. I am so glad I only saw 10 different deer during bow season. So nice not to have deer interrupt my tree sitting.