OC Black Friday Meet and Lunch 11/26/10 Discussion Thread

[mk2ja]

Oh, PS - might not hurt to call IMPD and talk to them about it to give them a heads-up. We had a "police escort" when we did the OC walk in September 2009 in downtown Indy. Since, as Pami said, there will already be lots of cops there, might as well just tell them that a few legally armed citizens will be out passing out literature and helping to raise awareness about gun rights and laws.

 

[dom1104]

I think this is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[sj kahr k40]

Oh, PS - might not hurt to call IMPD and talk to them about it to give them a heads-up. We had a "police escort" when we did the OC walk in September 2009 in downtown Indy. Since, as Pami said, there will already be lots of cops there, might as well just tell them that a few legally armed citizens will be out passing out literature and helping to raise awareness about gun rights and laws.

The problem with informing the cops is that we will be escorted and people then thing we can only do it because we are being escorted, I have no plans to inform the cops

 

[sj kahr k40]

I think this is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

I hope nothing will go wrong, but anything can go wrong at anytime that's a big reason why a lot of us carry guns

 

[Security122]

I think this is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

I just realized this was SARCASIM!

 

[sj kahr k40]

I just realized this was SARCASIM!

I realized it right off, but truthfully I predict a few tense moments and no problems, I also predict that we will reach a few people we encounter and have a few new gun owners out there

 

[indytechnerd]

The most I can see happening is we get our [STRIKE]rights[/STRIKE] bodies [STRIKE]violated[/STRIKE] ventilated [STRIKE]again[/STRIKE] and only build a stronger case for us. I for one am not afraid to stand up for the rights our forefathers gave blood for.

I think this is what you meant to say.
(note: "you" in the following is the generic "you", not ATF Consumer specifically)
Like Pami said, Black Friday is all hands on deck, including the reserve officers who probably don't get much in the way of street interaction. The last thing you want is for some chuckle-head to draw down on you in the middle of Von Maur because you've got your Mosin strapped to your back.

As a former manager of a mall store, if you did this on BF, I'd have probably asked you to leave my store, even while CCing myself, which I did nearly every day.
Educating the masses is all well and good, and I fully support OC, BUT you gotta pick your battles. Simon malls are pretty clear in their anti-gun stance. You want to go into their crown jewel in Indy, on the busiest shopping day of the year, and do something expressly against their views, in the most over-the-top fashion possible????

In the end, where is the line drawn between "exercising our rights and educating people" and "disrupting the lives of thousands of people and pissing off big money".

An analogy, albeit a bad one...
Let's say there's a little known law in the IC that states "Urinating on Trees is legal and acceptable in the State of Indiana". We, being manly men, love to whiz on trees. Unfortunately, the little old ladies from Shady Acres get a little perturbed when they see us whizzing on trees because they didn't know we can. So, in order to bring awareness, we decide to get a group of 20 or 30 of us and head downtown and proceed to whiz on every tree we can find. We decide to head over to the Lilly complex, they've got lots of trees, even though they're not big fans of public whizzing. How, are we still educating or are we just pissing people off?

I'm afraid I just can't support this plan. Call me what you will, but that's my opinion.


Ok, it wouldn't be fair of me to put up this wall of text without offering up an alternative...
If you want to educate the masses, you need to reach the masses. A few dozen guys passing out flyers isn't going to get you there. My suggestion is go BIG. Get every conservation club, gun club, and shooting range in the state to open their doors to the public for a weekend. Get shooters there, and to all of the DNR ranges. Call the police, the media, everyone. Take ads out in papers, whatever. Call it Indiana Firearm Education Day or something. Create the largest education event possible. Anyone who wants can show up, talk to folks, maybe actually handle and shoot a gun. Hell, I don't care if half the John Qs are plants when the cameras are rolling. If you put the spin that you're trying to educate gun safety, even the Antis will have trouble fighting you.

The bottom line is this...You have to educate people on their terms, not yours.

 

[Expat]

Good luck guys. I think I would avoid going onto Simon property if it is posted. That would give them an excuse to arrest you for trespassing and get you out of their hair. The charges may not stand but if they get the Simon people to complain, they will likely be okay with the law.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I think this is what you meant to say.
(note: "you" in the following is the generic "you", not ATF Consumer specifically)
Like Pami said, Black Friday is all hands on deck, including the reserve officers who probably don't get much in the way of street interaction. The last thing you want is for some chuckle-head to draw down on you in the middle of Von Maur because you've got your Mosin strapped to your back.

As a former manager of a mall store, if you did this on BF, I'd have probably asked you to leave my store, even while CCing myself, which I did nearly every day.
Educating the masses is all well and good, and I fully support OC, BUT you gotta pick your battles. Simon malls are pretty clear in their anti-gun stance. You want to go into their crown jewel in Indy, on the busiest shopping day of the year, and do something expressly against their views, in the most over-the-top fashion possible????

In the end, where is the line drawn between "exercising our rights and educating people" and "disrupting the lives of thousands of people and pissing off big money".

An analogy, albeit a bad one...
Let's say there's a little known law in the IC that states "Urinating on Trees is legal and acceptable in the State of Indiana". We, being manly men, love to whiz on trees. Unfortunately, the little old ladies from Shady Acres get a little perturbed when they see us whizzing on trees because they didn't know we can. So, in order to bring awareness, we decide to get a group of 20 or 30 of us and head downtown and proceed to whiz on every tree we can find. We decide to head over to the Lilly complex, they've got lots of trees, even though they're not big fans of public whizzing. How, are we still educating or are we just pissing people off?

I'm afraid I just can't support this plan. Call me what you will, but that's my opinion.


Ok, it wouldn't be fair of me to put up this wall of text without offering up an alternative...
If you want to educate the masses, you need to reach the masses. A few dozen guys passing out flyers isn't going to get you there. My suggestion is go BIG. Get every conservation club, gun club, and shooting range in the state to open their doors to the public for a weekend. Get shooters there, and to all of the DNR ranges. Call the police, the media, everyone. Take ads out in papers, whatever. Call it Indiana Firearm Education Day or something. Create the largest education event possible. Anyone who wants can show up, talk to folks, maybe actually handle and shoot a gun. Hell, I don't care if half the John Qs are plants when the cameras are rolling. If you put the spin that you're trying to educate gun safety, even the Antis will have trouble fighting you.

The bottom line is this...You have to educate people on their terms, not yours.

As far as I know, there won't be any longguns carried in the mall. Only CC and OC handguns, just like the LEO's.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I have never seen a no firearm sign at Circle Center mall

 

[sj kahr k40]

As far as I know, there won't be any longguns carried in the mall. Only CC and OC handguns, just like the LEO's.

I don't plan on carrying my long gun into the mall, I hope no one else plans on carrying their long gun into the mall.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Yeah, I decided that once we are done with the walk outside, I'll put the sub 2k in the vehicle for the mall walk. As far as carrying it outside, while my OC handgun will be in condition 0, my rifle will have an empty chamber and magazine.

 

[henktermaat]

I most likely can't come, but I'll be OCing when/if I go shopping this year.

 

[Pocketman]

If it's already a stated fact that Simon prohibits firearms, why intentionally trespass? If the intent is to exercise the right to carry, then is it not counterproductive to violate Simon's right to set policy for their own property?

Some people, perhaps even the majority, may see this as an "in your face" confrontation that could have the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. I think the idea is worthwhile, just use some common sense so you come across as the good citizens that you no doubt are.

 

[sj kahr k40]

As stated above I have never seen a no firearms sign at any Simon mall, and I worked in one for a number of years, plus the fact that the sign means nothing legally, I've discussed the no trespassing thing with numerous LEO's, prosecutors and judges in the past year and until we are asked to leave we are fine

 

[Pocketman]

OK, this is interesting. From the Anchorage (Alaska) 5th Avenue Simon Mall's web site:

Possession or carrying of firearms or weapons of any kind, openly or concealed, with or without a permit is prohibited.

I looked at the Circle Center and Castleton Malls web sites and find no such language.

 

[indytechnerd]

emailed Simon Malls...

So, I headed to Simon's website to get the final word. It wasn't there, so I took it to the next level. Using their online form, which may be a black hole, I sent this request...

I am involved in a fairly heated discussion right now regarding Simon properties, and I've been unable to find an answer via your website. The question revolves around legally carried firearms, either openly or concealed. What is the official Simon policy? I ask this as a citizen of Indiana, where licensed firearm owners are allowed to carry a side arm virtually everywhere with a few excluded areas (schools, gov't buildings, etc.)

If it goes nowhere, I'll start looking for specific individuals to email.

 

[a.bentonab]

A simple search ( ingo has a search?) reveals numerous discussions about Simon malls being very anti gun. With all the enhanced security and probably a heads up from any law enforcement or security that sees this forum and I doubt you will get far.

As a LTCH owner, if I were shopping in the mall and I saw a group of openly armed men in a group/ groups in a known anti gun establishment on a day with many people and alot of money milling about I would be scared.

Haven't you ever seen Paul Blart? Well if you haven't I'll bet one of the hundreds or thousands of people there has! Hopefully they don't try to be a hero.

The general public MIGHT be different but the kind of audience you are likely to receive on Black Friday isn't goig to think "oh that's legal? Cool." They are going to think "oh that's legal? It shouldn't be." That is if they even think it is legal because you will be at best politely asked to leave or possibly escorted or cuffed.

Even if you don't think you are breaking any laws what if you cause a fuss aka disturb the peace or cause people to leave? This could easily be construed as ( in order of most to least likely) disturbing the peace, rioting with a firearm, or incitig a riot. Get one if those charges and you are no longer a "proper person." Goodbye LTCH.

How many of those walking will have had proper weapon retention taught? You are likely to be shoulder to shoulder with people the entire time you are there.
I hope this goes well but I predict it will end very badly.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I think it quite a stretch to go from window shopping while OCing to inciting a riot or disturbing the peace

I have been trained by LEO's in weapon retention so I'm not worried about it. Plus by 12:30-1 it won't be wall to wall people

 

[a.bentonab]

I think it quite a stretch to go from window shopping while OCing to inciting a riot or disturbing the peace

I have been trained by LEO's in weapon retention so I'm not worried about it. Plus by 12:30-1 it won't be wall to wall people

Imagine one miscommunication "(click of PA system) Attention thousands of shoppers in a rather small enclosed area. A group of armed men has entered the mall. Please proceed calmly to the closest exit. Again, armed men have entered the mall."

What would you do if you were there with your wife or kids?

At that point what would you do as a group, yell "it's ok we organized on a website!" and wave your LTCH around?