obama bows again

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  • BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    To everyone in this thread -

    {{citation needed}}

    Since when has it been American custom to not observe the customs of other nations?

    It is protocol.
    I was in the Navy and as we passed ships of other nations we never saluted FIRST.
    Just as an officer never salutes first.
    I'm sick of people thinking we need to bow to others. No other nation on this planet has done so much good in all of their years of existence as America has in her short history.
    I don't expect other nations to bow to us, but I damned well don't want our President bowing to them.
     
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    It is protocol.
    I was in the Navy and as we passed ships of other nations we never saluted FIRST.
    Just as an officer never salutes first.
    I'm sick of people thinking we need to bow to others. No other nation on this planet has done so much good in all of their years of existence as America has in her short history.
    I don't expect other nations to bow to us, but I damned well don't want our President bowing to them.

    For the last time, Protocol enshrined where?

    In which document?

    Cite to me United States Code or the Military Standard which requires the President to abide by any such 'protocol'... whether you or I like the guy, or not (and I don't think either of us do) - he's the President of these United States of America, and can pretty much do whatever he wants, in case you haven't noticed with a $787 billion stimulus bill, and an upcoming $1.3 trillion dollar healthcare bill.

    We shouldn't be subservient to any nation, no; definitely not, a thousand times: no.

    But I don't think doing as the Romans do when in Rome qualifies as being subservient... now, if we were to bend over and to let the Japanese get a trade deficit over on us as we have allowed China to do, noted by their/our import/export imbalance, then I'd say you have a reasonable concern. As it stands, Japan is the second-largest economy in the world - right behind us, with the Chinese trailing an ever-gaining third. Let's keep them as happy as possible, what say? And if they're sated by a simple demonstration of goodwill - though pre-emptive - I'd say it's a small price to pay for making sure that our economic prowess remains unchallenged by the second-largest economy in the world, what say you. Remember, there's nothing keeping the Japanese buying up T-bonds on which they're likely to never get fully paid save goodwill and trust of our system of governance... China is already switching to Special Drawing Rights, which are a mixture of the yen, pound sterling, euro, and dollar in a gooey, messy, conglomerated mixture denominated by the IMF... and when that happens, we're completely and totally *******.

    Until and unless he's going to start letting the Japanese station troops in California, I think we're okay... and if that ever were to happen, much else would have had to happen besides and in addition to that, so that too will be the least of our concerns... of more concern will be the extermination camps surely set up in Indianapolis and elsewhere by that point. But until then, this is a moot point, and even worse, a distraction to the real missteps committed by the Commander-in-Chief.

    Just my two cents.
     

    ThrottleJockey

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    OK, it's likely been said, but there is no problem with acknowledging the customs of another culture. However the bow that took place with the Saudi King was certainly subservient in nature and should never have happened especially considering that many Americans still doubt that his loyalties are to the USA. Then there's the whole disrespecting the Queen of England thing, but that was michelle. Just goes to show you can dress a pig up but you can't take it out to dance...or something like that.
    He blew it. A bow is a universal sign of subservience.
    Not entirely true. When bowing as a form of a polite greeting one maintains eye contact, when eye contact is not maintained it is a sign of subservience and weakness.
    Until and unless he's going to start letting the Japanese station troops in California, I think we're okay..
    Better watch out, he did give eminent domain to the Chinese.....And there are foreign troops from nearly every nation in the UN currently stationed here and training here and there have been for over thirty years. You don't expect the national guard and reserve to man those death camps here do you?
     
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    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    Oh I'm sure it wasn't a bow anyway. Just ask Gibbs.

    QUESTION: When the President met with King Abdullah, there was something that took place which I believe the White House explained was just the president being taller than the king. We took a look at the video, and it does appear that the president actually bowed to King Abdullah. Did he bow or didn't he?
    GIBBS: No, I think he bent over with both, to shake -- with both hands to shake his hand, so I don't--
    QUESTION: Did he bow or didn't he?
    GIBBS: No.
     
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    Well, there's a huge difference between the Japanese and Saudi Arabia...

    agreed, though - despite what Stephen Colbert said about Scott McClellan saying nothing like nobody else, I think Gibbs is giving McClellan and even Ms. Perino a run for their money. That's the job of the press secretary: to treat the media like mushrooms - feed them crap and keep them in the dark.

    ThrottleJockey -

    Do you really expect enough grunts to refuse to obey orders to make it impossible?

    Also, proof of his ceding the solely sovereign right of eminent domain to the Chinese would be appreciated.... granted, they make pretty much everything already, but I want to see physical evidence of a claim that grand, sir, before stating it myself...
     

    Indecision

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    Why is it that Obama seems to have no clue what he is doing? I mean, they pay people a lot of money to tell him exactly what to do, and he still screws it up.
     
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    Not entirely true. When bowing as a form of a polite greeting one maintains eye contact, when eye contact is not maintained it is a sign of subservience and weakness.

    This is incorrect. In Japan, maintaining eye contact while bowing shows the other person that you consider them an enemy. Bowing here in Japan as a greeting is not about showing "subservience and weakness". It is about showing trust, respect, and a lack of Ego (something Western, and especially American, society could use a whole lot LESS of)to the person you are greeting.

    American :patriot: culture, customs, attitudes, and ways of thinking are not universal, folks, so let's not apply the filter and biases of our own culture when looking at another.
     

    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    This is incorrect. In Japan, maintaining eye contact while bowing shows the other person that you consider them an enemy. Bowing here in Japan as a greeting is not about showing "subservience and weakness". It is about showing trust, respect, and a lack of Ego (something Western, and especially American, society could use a whole lot LESS of)to the person you are greeting.

    American :patriot: culture, customs, attitudes, and ways of thinking are not universal, folks, so let's not apply the filter and biases of our own culture when looking at another.

    That would explain why the Emperor kept his eyes on Obama.
     

    mrjarrell

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    For the last time, Protocol enshrined where?
    In the State Department protocol manuals that I and every other person who grew up in a diplomatic family were required to read and learn. It is long established protocol, (about 200 years worth) that Americans bow to no one. When I was a kid, and later an adult working for the USDS, it was made abundantly clear what protocol was to be followed. Apparently, the new USDS, under Clinton allows these rules to be ignored in the name of political correctness and subservience to other nations customs.
     

    mrjarrell

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    An interesting .gif of what other heads of state have done when meeting the emperor.
    .Gif

    I notice that they aren't bowing....guess they have established protocol that they actually follow.
     

    dburkhead

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    An interesting .gif of what other heads of state have done when meeting the emperor.
    .Gif

    I notice that they aren't bowing....guess they have established protocol that they actually follow.

    You can't really make that presumption from still photos. Photo could have been taken a moment before of a moment after any bow that might have happened. Notice in a number of them the Emperor is not bowing either and the idea of bowing as polite greeting is so thoroughly entrenched in Japanese culture, particularly among the "upper strata" of society that the idea that the Emperor would not bow in such a situation is not much more unlikely than the idea of his not breathing.

    Seriously, had, say, the Prime Minister of Japan come to America back in the 80s and refused to shake hands with Ronald Reagan, is there anybody here who would not have found that offensive? Shaking hands on meeting is our custom and to refuse to do so is highly insulting. Well that's what Bowing is in Japan. Maybe some, or even all, of those heads of state were refusing to bow. But is the fact of their being rude, crude, and offensive justification for our being the same? I guess the Ugly American lives. :(
     

    TRWXXA

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    Bowing in the Japanese culture is a very complicated custom. There are a lot of nuances involved that westerners don't understand -- who bows first, how low, who bows lower, eyes down, eyes up, etc.. That is why westerners generally don't bow, and if they do it's just a very subtle bend at the waist. Understanding this, it is not offensive to modern Japanese when westerners don't practice the custom.

    That being said, I'm pretty sure that "The Mess-iah's" low bow demonstrates a position of subservience or inferiority in the Japanese culture.
     

    Denny347

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    We as Americans bow to no one!!!!! We are the best and every one else sucks and in order to prove that we act as such. We are Americans...our culture/traditions are the only ones that matter. How do I know that? Because God told me so.
     

    mrjarrell

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    ThrottleJockey - those aren't reliable sources and you know it.

    MrJarrell - I don't suppose you actually have a link or copy of said manuals?
    Nope. They are actual dead tree books that used to be used. They were handed out to all diplomatic families so we would know what to do when the time came. Bowing to foreign heads of state was covered. It was, for almost 200 years a no no that dated back to the post Revolution period. American had to bow to a King once and we'd never do it again. I bet they still have them at Foggy Bottom in the FSO lounge. Then again, Hillary could have had them all burned.
     

    Bruenor

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    One point that I don't think has been raised (or maybe it had and I missed it) is the perception of the bow. In the game/world of politics, what someone's true intentions are very rarely matters. It is how people perceive those actions that is important. With President Obama's bow to the Japanese head of state, coming on the heels of the bow in Saudi Arabia, the perception to a lot of people, both in this country and beyond, is going to be very different than if Obama had simply shaken his hand. While a hand shake would have placed the two of them on the same level, in the minds of many the fact that Obama bowed, and bowed so low, makes him look like he is submitting to another power in a way.

    Once again, I'm not talking about what actually happened, or what was meant, or what customs are involved; I'm talking about the perceptions of the situation. Most Americans don't know a thing about Japanese culture, nor care to, so all they have to go off of is what they feel about the situation. President Obama is no neophyte when it comes to politics, nor is his team of advisors, and they should have anticipated what would happen after this bow. All of them should have known that it would instantly be splashed up on Drudge and a number of other websites, and that there would be controversy.

    So I have come to a couple of conclusions. If they didn't realize what the perception and impact would be, then they truly are amateurs and should not be in politics at this level. If they did realize it, but didn't care or didn't think that it would have been this big of a deal, then I think they really need to take a better look at the current political demographics in this country and reeveluate some of their decisions.


    Sorry, all of that is the old political science major in me coming out. I could go on for days talking about perceptions of politics, and what situations can affect what voting blocks, and so forth.
     
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