No trigger work if you are going to carry it?...

[Hornett]

I just see this over and over.

"I wouldn't put that 3 1/2 pound connector in that Glock if I was going to carry it. It looks bad in court if you ever have to use it."

I just don't get it.
Do I have to have a NY trigger with a 12 lb pull to use it for self defense?
Does it not matter that most people shoot better when the trigger has been polished a little bit?
Is it because I did it myself and I am not qualified?

I just don't buy it.
Anyone that uses a handgun in self defense is going to have to answer questions.
I DO have a 3 1/2 lb trigger spring in my night stand G22.
Because I want to hit my target.
It's a Glock... You can throw it, drop it, hit people with it, whatever and it won't go off unless you pull the trigger, with either a lighter connector or a NY trigger.

IMHO if you extend this logic, you would be in trouble in court for
* practicing at a range
* buying a tactical holster
* replacing the grips
* changing the sights to night sights
* even buying a gun that is specifically sold for self defense

I guess we will all just have to carry High Points or better yet Kel Tec P-11's (worst trigger I can think of on short notice)

I understand that there are target triggers.
I even agree that those don't belong on a carry gun.
Too easy to touch one off when you don't want to.

But my gun won't be out of the holster and my finger won't be on the trigger unless there is an imminent threat to my or my loved ones personal safety.
What is the prosecuting attorney going to say?

Well, your Honor, Mr. Hornett here accidentally shot my clients son in the center of mass twice while my clients son was robbing him at gunpoint. Mr. Hornett would have just scared my clients son resulting in him fleeing if that dang ol' 3 1/2 lb trigger hadn't went off 2 times in a row.

Someone please explain this to me.
Why is it that a good lawyer can't make some one look bad in court for insinuating that lightening the trigger is just for killing people?

 

[indykid]

When all heck breaks loose to the point you need to pull your weapon, your adrenalin will be high enough that a 30 pound trigger would be light.

A lightened trigger could lead to a round discharged before you are ready to, which could endanger by-standers.

Good lawyers could make anything look evil.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Alright, a few things:

Massad Ayoob was a huge proponent of this, and many others as well, he was the most vocal. Given his background (Cop) and the state he worked in, cases regarding defense aren't handled the same way. Almost everything went to trial.

Indiana is rather tame supposedly in this regard: We do not have a trial unless there is something really fishy about the situation, not the weapon. (or so I have been told).

Some lawyers I have talked with say this: Weapons mods aren't held against you unless something is suspicious about the case. Take the 10mm case they had a long time ago (can't remember the case, but this serves as a flag for someone to find it): The prosecution needed to push the jury over the edge with the shooting (which was highly suspected to be more of a aggrevated murder than defense shooting), so they picked on the nature of the ammo (10mm plus handloaded) to make the shooter out to be a raving maniac in search of blood.

All in all: It's a non issue, unless the modification is "illegal" such as SBS or non-registered full auto. Handloads fall into this in my mind. I have had more factory ammo fail than my handloads. YMMV

 

[Beau]

When all heck breaks loose to the point you need to pull your weapon, your adrenalin will be high enough that a 30 pound trigger would be light.

A lightened trigger could lead to a round discharged before you are ready to, which could endanger by-standers.

Good lawyers could make anything look evil.

I disagree with this. Your finger shouldn't be on the trigger until you are ready to fire. I don't care how heavy your pull is, if your finger is there before you are ready to fire you risk premature discharge. Ask ATM, he knows all about that topic.

To the OP I agree. I have a 3 1/2 connector in my G21 which is my carry gun. I put there so that I wouldn't push/pull the trigger as much in a high stress situation.

I think people just want to spread fear based on their own perceptions. I've had people tell me that shooting uspsa could be used against me if I ever had to defend myself.

 

[SMiller]

Both triggers still have breaks in them. Nothing wrong with factory Glock triggers, I will be installing 3 1\2lbs triggers in both my G19's.

We are not talking hair triggers on revolvers here...

 

[Hornett]

Thanks for all the responses.
I have utmost respect for Ayoob, but I (timidly) disagree with him here.
It helps a lot knowing the background for his opinion.

Now THIS woman needs a NY trigger.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg[/ame]
On second thought, it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[esrice]

It's a perception vs. reality issue.

Unfortunately the perception is that lighter trigger = easier to discharge unintentionally. That perception can be used by a good lawyer to make it look like you (the shooter) wanted a "hair trigger", which is "just asking for trouble". Having a stock trigger that was put there by the manufacturer is one way to combat this perception. (there are others)

We all know that reality differs, but reality doesn't always win court cases.

 

[Sticky]

The "target trigger" may or may not become an issue in a criminal trial; depends on the prosecutor. But in the nearly certain civil trial, it almost certainly will become an issue. This assumes they know about the lighter trigger.

Personally, if I shot better with the 3.5; I'd use it anyway. After all, I'm pretty sure there is no law against defending yourself with a target pistol...

 

[ATM]

Ask ATM, he knows all about that topic.

I saw that.

 

[Beau]

I saw that.

Nothing gets by you.

 

[youngda9]

Don't make questionable SD shots and it won't ever be an issue

 

[finity]

The "target trigger" may or may not become an issue in a criminal trial; depends on the prosecutor. But in the nearly certain civil trial, it almost certainly will become an issue. This assumes they know about the lighter trigger.

So I assume you have a long list of links to all these "nearly cartain civil trials" that are happening after the person was found to be justified in using deadly force?

How about just one verified case in IN where a person was successfully sued (or even not successfully) after they were found justified in using deadly force?

If someone is convicted of a crime related to their unreasonable use of force then I think it would be likely to be sued.

In a criminal trial the facts are going to be looked at to ensure that the use of force was reasonable. It doesn't really matter what instrument was used to administer that force as long as it was reasonable. If you shoot someone & it was reasonable for you to shoot them then it's not going to make one bit of difference if you used a .22 or a .45 or if your gun has a 3lb trigger or a 12lb trigger.

Does anybody really think a prosecutor will look at a case & say "well, I would have not filed charges in the killing of John Robber but since the robbery victim shot him with a modified gun that only had a 3lb trigger I changed my mind. Now, if he used a gun with a 3.5lb trigger he would have been fine"?

If you're going to be charged it won't be based on the weight of the trigger pull on your gun.

 

[kingnereli]

Make whatever modifications to your carry gun that help you shoot the best. You need to worry about surviving the incident before you consider the aftermath. All my carry guns get trigger jobs. Some even get some internal safeties removed.

 

[Coach]

Do what you need to do as far as modifcations to the gun in order to survive the incident. This is the first priority. I cannot imagine that the weight of the trigger would ever be checked. Why would it matter.

A 30 pound trigger does not make a gun more safe, and a 3 pound trigger does not made it less safe. Trigger weight does not matter if the finger is in the register position.

 

[rich8483]

any one who carries a gun with them that has a trigger is intent on killing someone!
self defense guns should not have a trigger to avoid this perception. you should be required to hit the back of the gun with a dowel rod to move the firing pin. much safer and you wont be considered a "gun nut"

 

[Hornett]

any one who carries a gun with them that has a trigger is intent on killing someone!
self defense guns should not have a trigger to avoid this perception. you should be required to hit the back of the gun with a dowel rod to move the firing pin. much safer and you wont be considered a "gun nut"

LOL
Don't say that stuff out loud, the socialists will take you serious.

 

[Tomball]

Actually, I would think a heavy trigger will bring you greater liability. A heavy trigger pull when you are trying to crank shots off at the target has a fairly good chance to cause you to jerk, sending a too whom it may concern down range.

I think the NYPD found that out with their Glocks. Not that NYPD has ever been known as having a high standard of marksmanship.

 

[Sticky]

So I assume you have a long list of links to all these "nearly cartain civil trials" that are happening after the person was found to be justified in using deadly force?

How about just one verified case in IN where a person was successfully sued (or even not successfully) after they were found justified in using deadly force?

If someone is convicted of a crime related to their unreasonable use of force then I think it would be likely to be sued.

After you are found justified, lawyers will want to sue you because now, your insurance company will want to settle out-of-court. If not justified, insurance companies are mostly exempt from any liability for whatever you did in committing a "crime". Short version, insurance companies make you a much better target for a lawsuit if you are found justified. I am a disciple of Massad Ayoob and am basically quoting from his many books and articles on his own experiences as an expert witness. He probably has specific cases he could list for you. I don't write down case law as I am not a lawyer.

In a criminal trial the facts are going to be looked at to ensure that the use of force was reasonable. It doesn't really matter what instrument was used to administer that force as long as it was reasonable. If you shoot someone & it was reasonable for you to shoot them then it's not going to make one bit of difference if you used a .22 or a .45 or if your gun has a 3lb trigger or a 12lb trigger.

Does anybody really think a prosecutor will look at a case & say "well, I would have not filed charges in the killing of John Robber but since the robbery victim shot him with a modified gun that only had a 3lb trigger I changed my mind. Now, if he used a gun with a 3.5lb trigger he would have been fine"?

If you're going to be charged it won't be based on the weight of the trigger pull on your gun.

According to Massad Ayoob, who has testified in such cases, it has and does happen. IIRC, the prosecutor can (and will) make the claim that modifying a safety device or trigger shows a "wanton disregard for human life".

In my opinion, a trigger at 3.5 pounds won't be a problem, most especially if done by a factory made drop-in part like a Glock connector. Or if the work is done by any gunsmith who works on police duty weapons. Those should be very court-defensible. It is also legal to use a target pistol for defense. On the other hand, if you use a 2 pound trigger that you filed down yourself (assuming you aren't a gunsmith), there might be a problem. Maybe.

If you want references/citations on this post, I think it's mostly covered in the book "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.

Edit: I forgot to add that in a justified shooting that I was involved in, the opposition attempted a lawsuit.

 

[finity]

If you want references/citations on this post, I think it's mostly covered in the book "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.

Well, since I've never read Ayoob's books you have me at a disadvantage. I don't know if any of those cases that he was involved in was in IN. I don't know if there were other factors that originally caused the prosecutor to file charges & then he just used the modification to try to bolster his case. I really can't see a prosecutor going from saying it was a good (justified) shoot to a bad shoot (filing criminal charges) based solely on the fact that a trigger pull weight was modified from factory specs.

Edit: I forgot to add that in a justified shooting that I was involved in, the opposition attempted a lawsuit.

I think the key word above is "attempted". Did they just threaten a suit or did they actually file? Did the suit get thrown out before it went to court? Did it go to court & you won?

 

[rmabrey]

If its a good shoot it wont matter. And honestly a 3.5# trigger is no more maniacal than carrying 2 extra mags on your belt and 2 more in the car plus a BUG.

Same thing IMO.