No more investing in EVs! Honda/GM joint venture into hydrogen for vehicles!!

[Ingomike]

Come on Mike, that is such a misrepresentation of facts. Just because they qualified for or received .gov money, does not mean they could not support a charger without it.

Then why did they need government money to put one in? Why couldn’t the private sector put one in and make money on it? Why is the government involved in charging at all? What explanation can there be but that there is no profit for the private sector to warrant the investment. If there was companies would be stepping on themselves to put it in…

 

[KLB]

Then why did they need government money to put one in? Why couldn’t the private sector put one in and make money on it? Why is the government involved in charging at all? What explanation can there be but that there is no profit for the private sector to warrant the investment. If there was companies would be stepping on themselves to put it in…

Now I have to explain plain English. Will and can are two totally different words. You know all of this. I can only guess you are misrepresenting to make political points.

 

[Ingomike]

Now I have to explain plain English. Will and can are two totally different words. You know all of this. I can only guess you are misrepresenting to make political points.

They need government money to put in charging infrastructure because there is not enough FINANCIAL support to make it profitable for the private sector.

Heck, Martha’s Vinyard cannot even support an EV charger without the government stepping in. Did government build the gas station network?

Clear now?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could have a thread on hydrogen vehicles without it turning in to the fifty-billionth EV thread where people repeat the same talking points yet again?

 

[Ingomike]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could have a thread on hydrogen vehicles without it turning in to the fifty-billionth EV thread where people repeat the same talking points yet again?

It would be. But the original post was first about investment n EV‘s and secondly about hydrogen vehicles. I thought it belonged in the main EV thread…

 

[shibumiseeker]

Those incapable of discussing and defending their positions resort to name calling. Maybe you should study history. Research into EV continued, it just is not viable for free people in a big country. If they could they would. And now because of scarcity of rare earth metals the manufacturers are going backward in technology just to build batteries.

This will be the biggest boondoggle we have ever seen…

And those with weak arguments resort to unsupported assertions. Point in fact, though, I called no names. I noticed you didn’t address the issue I brought up with disparity in the amount of research and development between the two.

 

[manifest destiny]

I appreciate that some find EV's to be acceptable to their lifestyle. EV's don't fit for many. As to racing specifically, I'll just note that entry of EV cars in the 24hrs of Lemans is actually hybrid. Seems 24hrs at speed requires some evil liquid called gas; or quicker "refills".

 

[Ingomike]

And those with weak arguments resort to unsupported assertions. Point in fact, though, I called no names. I noticed you didn’t address the issue I brought up with disparity in the amount of research and development between the two.

The post literally has the word “research” In the post you quoted wow!

 

[shibumiseeker]

The post literally has the word “research” In the post you quoted wow!

Your own condescension is noted as well. Pray tell, just how much research, how much being the thrust of the point you conveniently ignored twice to score your points, has gone into powering vehicles with electric vs ICEs?

As I said in my OP, I -like- ICEs. I also like electric and I’m excited to see where they are going. I’m just not going to knee-jerk dismiss them because they don’t fit a particular political agenda, and this kind of ridiculousness is why I typically stay out of these threads.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It would be. But the original post was first about investment n EV‘s and secondly about hydrogen vehicles. I thought it belonged in the main EV thread…

Did you read the article in the OP? Did you notice it was about a joint hydrogen project? No, the first post was entirely about a hydrogen project with a side of how the OP thought that meant an end to investing in EVs in favor of hydrogen due to that project.

I know that you will know attempt to cannonball run define this as well to make it so you're right, so I'll save us both time and concede this is now an EV thread, always was an EV thread, and always will be an EV thread. I'm sure salient new points that haven't been made in the existing EV threads are certainly being made.

 

[manifest destiny]

A thread titled, "No more investing in EV's" isn't an EV thread? Hydrogen can/should be discussed, but there is no denying that EV's are part of the discussion, per the thread title.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A thread titled, "No more investing in EV's" isn't an EV thread? Hydrogen can/should be discussed, but there is no denying that EV's are part of the discussion, per the thread title.

Sure. In the same way a thread titled "No more investing" isn't about the stock market...because you cut off the relevant bits. Same question. Did you read the article the OP posted. Note the lack of EVs in it?

GM-Honda Joint Venture Begins Hydrogen Fuel Cell Production​

The OP thinks hydrogen vehicles are displacing EVs because of this. So if EVs are part of the discussion, it's as the compare to *hydrogen* and not to *ICE* which is where the thread has went.

But let's just make it another bacon thread and be done with it.

 

[KLB]

I appreciate that some find EV's to be acceptable to their lifestyle. EV's don't fit for many. As to racing specifically, I'll just note that entry of EV cars in the 24hrs of Lemans is actually hybrid. Seems 24hrs at speed requires some evil liquid called gas; or quicker "refills".

Well, I said performance not racing. I don't drive for 24 hours straight anymore than I try to drive across the country in as short a time as possible. You were the one that said ICE vehicles were better in every aspect.

Oh, EVs are generally better in heavy traffic too.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hydrogen has so little mass appeal it can't even get a thread on INGO without being displaced by ICE as something to argue about with EVs.

 

[KLB]

Hydrogen has so little mass appeal it can't even get a thread on INGO without being displaced by ICE as something to argue about with EVs.

Then we need to mandate it now, banning all other options by 2035!

 

[shibumiseeker]

Hydrogen has so little mass appeal it can't even get a thread on INGO without being displaced by ICE as something to argue about with EVs.

Nerd pun alert!


To me the key has always been an electric motor. Once you refined that as the motive source for transportation, then the method of powering said motor has a world of options, whether battery, fuel cell, ICE-generator, whatever, becomes secondary. Having the flexibility to directly drive wheels without being required to have a transmission opens up a lot of design possibilities. I love to nerd out about it. As an energy storage medium, hydrogen is decent in certain applications, but loses overall in efficiency compared to battery or other tech like pumped storage. I think throwing it out completely is a bad idea as there continues to be a lot of advancement possible, and I’m glad to see some companies continuing to explore it.

I think the low mass appeal has far more to do with how it is packaged and presented and the infrastructure issues than anything else.

Like anything though, it all depends on where we choose to invest as a society. 40 years ago when I first got into PV for home power, I was repeatedly told by those who liked to trash such things that it was never going to be possible, yet here 40 years later I’ve been off-grid for 30 of those years and every year the tech gets better and better, taking it from a niche hobbyist thing where we were designing our own gear to being able to totally do it off the shelf, and I don’t see that progress slowing any time soon.

If hydrogen and fuel cell tech were our only option, for sure we’d be having a different new tech that can’t possibly work to yap about a hundred years from now because it can’t make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs. I don’t see that part of human nature changing much.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the low mass appeal has far more to do with how it is packaged and presented and the infrastructure issues than anything else.

I think it has far more to do with the fact it's significantly more expensive to accomplish the same task, which is always a death knell in a commodity. The complexity of required infrastructure certainly exacerbates that cost difference, and even more so vs an entrenched existing alternative. But no technology is going to change it's energy negative to create. Unless some massive underground pockets of pure hydrogen are located and tapped in a way that's cheaper than oil/natural gas, there's no overcoming it's energy negative unless we can reinvent the very basics of physics and chemistry. If we can do that, then power sources are really no longer a limiting factor at all.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I think it has far more to do with the fact it's significantly more expensive to accomplish the same task, which is always a death knell in a commodity. The complexity of required infrastructure certainly exacerbates that cost difference, and even more so vs an entrenched existing alternative. But no technology is going to change it's energy negative to create. Unless some massive underground pockets of pure hydrogen are located and tapped in a way that's cheaper than oil/natural gas, there's no overcoming it's energy negative unless we can reinvent the very basics of physics and chemistry. If we can do that, then power sources are really no longer a limiting factor at all.

I think that is in-line with what I was saying. It’s unlikely to become a dominant form of energy storage because it is more lossy than the alternatives, but there will be applications where it makes sense. Uncombined hydrogen essentially doesn’t exist on the planet in any worthwhile quantity so it will always be an energy transport, not a primary source. But there will be niches where it makes sense.

About 20 years ago, I wrote a paper on my ideal vehicle. This is the pipe dream of, “I have billions of dollars to throw at it. So this is the car company I would build and make.” A variety of vehicles with a high degree of modularity between them. Electric traction wheels, so that you could choose between 1, 2, 3, or 4wd. Then bays you could put whatever kind of power source makes the most sense for the given job needed. A smaller vehicle might have two or three bays, a large truck might have 8 to 10, and all the way in between. Some bays might hold batteries that you could swap out, some bays may hold auxiliary power units that could be either small ICEs, or fuel cells, or whatever technology comes down the line. If most of your trips are around town, you put one or two batteries in it and either charge it when you’re not driving, or some kind of APU that can run the vehicle and charge the batteries as necessary, similar to the way hybrids do now. If you’re going on a long highway trip, you swap out one or two of the batteries and put in extra APUs. You could have two or three vehicles to suit your needs. Your daily driver, your weekend, fun, off-road vehicle, whatever. But you don’t need to have many different power systems for all of them, as you can swap around between them. Make it highly modular, so that parts sourcing is simpler, and repair is simpler. You buy the basic bare vehicle, then choose whatever power systems you want for it. As they go start having problems, you don’t have to swap out the entire engine, or a huge battery pack. As technology changes, you don’t have to scrap the entire vehicle.

 

[Ingomike]

Your own condescension is noted as well. Pray tell, just how much research, how much being the thrust of the point you conveniently ignored twice to score your points, has gone into powering vehicles with electric vs ICEs?

As I said in my OP, I -like- ICEs. I also like electric and I’m excited to see where they are going. I’m just not going to knee-jerk dismiss them because they don’t fit a particular political agenda, and this kind of ridiculousness is why I typically stay out of these threads.

You just pop in to the discussion and describe that discussion as “yapping” I took that as condescension, not a great way of entering a discussion, so I can see why you might avoid these types of threads.

As for research into EV’s. They have been around almost 200 years, predate ICE by several decades. Hundreds of EV’s were used as cabs in cities in the early twentieth century. Their use has been tried over and over again throughout this time, so there has been considerable research done over that time.

You may like socialist programs for business, I do not. I have nothing against EV’s as a propulsion system but the fact they are being forced on business and the people by government cause me to despise them. I did not make them political those forcing them on the public and using taxpayer dollars did.

 

[ditcherman]

But let's just make it another bacon thread and be done with it.

You misspelled "pineapple".

Also, surprised @MCgrease08 isn't in here, he has some real insight into hydrogen vs electric from Cummin's perspective, if I'm not mistaken.