New Shotgun Gauge / Shell Discussion

[Squid556]

A trend I notice in the firearms industry of course is new calibers being introduced for one reason or another.

Rifle cartridges ....? Seems like we see someone develop and market a new rifle round at the drop of a hat! Several per year it seems.

Handgun cartridges...... ?Less frequently but every few years we see a new one

Shotgun shells.............? Bueller?

Sure we get new shotgun designs here and there. Some are actually pretty innovative. But they all are built around an ancient cartridge! Still stuck in the rimmed cartridge phase for Pete sake! Best we get is a different pay load, or a different length (mini shell)

I see companies optimizing current designs to increase performance of the 12 gauge shell. Usually by finding a way to get more shells in the gun, or by increasing the speed of reloads. If any of y'all have used a mag fed 12 gauge, you will probably realize how sub optimal the plastic rimmed case is for magazine use.

I find it odd that nobody really tackles this but instead continues to utilize such an dated and sub optimal cartridge. There have been a lot of advancements in powder, cases, projectiles... Why not integrate new tech into the world of shotgun shells? Especially in regard to police / military use.

What's your thoughts on what this new shell could look like and do?

 

[two70]

From the bulk of your discussion it seems what you want is not a new gauge but a new type of shotgun shell and I don't think the demand is there. Current offerings already fill the real uses for a shotgun, beyond that is rifle territory. By the way, there is a thread here somewhere about efforts to basically turn shotgun shells in to large bore rifles. It's not exactly what you're asking for but should be an interesting read nonetheless if you can find it.

 

[jbombelli]

If they figure out how to violate the laws of physics and develop a shot shell with more power, a heavier load, and less recoil I'd be all about it.

But good luck with that

 

[Whip_McCord]

If any of y'all have used a mag fed 12 gauge, you will probably realize how sub optimal the plastic rimmed case is for magazine use.

Maybe a rimless, bottleneck shotshell.

Joking asside, the vast majority of shotgun shooters do not use magazine fed shotguns. It seems like solving an issue for such a small percentage of users would not be something ammo makers would try to tackle. That would be for the mag fed shotgun makers to solve with magazine enhancements or moving from traditional mag to another shell feeding device.

 

[Michigan Slim]

I wonder if someone could design a shell that would keep shape in a mag when stored. Or could be loaded easily at home to fit the exact needs of the shooter. Hmmmmmm. Maybe someone could make a brass shot shell someday. That might do it.

 

[jdeanp]

Would a rotary style magazine help keep the shells from deforming in the magazine? If each shell had a "cradle", maybe?

 

[JEBland]

It's not that shotguns gauge availability isn't changing, but it's declining. In recent times, we've gone from 10, 12, 16, 20, 28, .410 effectively down to 12, 20, (28 on it's way out, but I still want an Ithaca), .410.

• With 3-1/2" 12 gauges, why have a 10?
• With light 12s and 3" 20s, why have a 16?
• With 3" .410 shells, why worry about a 16 for a Turkey gun.

As noted above, a shotshell is really a short-range tool. Slightly longer chambers, while they involve more cleaning if shorter sub-length shells, allow for more oomph. Consolidating gauges makes for cheaper mass-produced shells, which benefits everyone.

With every "new" rifle cartridge, it comes with a flurry of "it ain't new" and "it doesn't do anything that X and Y can't do." It seems that the only place consumers realize this (as a market group) is shotguns.

One could maybe hope for a rimless shotshell for magazine-fed shotguns, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Rimless semiauto 12 gauge seems to have been tried and is dead.

 

[two70]

By their very nature, shotguns and shotgun ammo are generalist tools, they are designed to do a variety of things reasonably well. Ammo can be tailored to specific tasks to perform those specific tasks better but they still remain generalists tools. Rifles and rifle cartridges on the other hand are more of a specialist's tool, with rifles and ammo designed for specific purposes. As more specialized tools, there is more room, even need, for variety and options with rifles than shotguns.

 

[Twangbanger]

First, a dose of reality: people who shoot tactical shotgun are a not just a pimple on the azz of the shooting world, volume-wise. They're a pimple...on top of a pimple...on the azz of the shooting world. The people who shoot doves, small game, and clay targets shoot many, many multiples of the number of rounds a year that tactical shotgun people do. It isn't even close. It isn't even in the same universe. And rimmed shells work fine for them, because they don't need an "AR-15 shotgun" to do what they do. Five rounds in the tube of a Benelli is more than enough.

I think the hard part isn't developing a rimless shotshell. It's developing a gun that doesn't have to be purpose-built for rimless shells, and can fire both rimless and rimmed interchangeably. Because otherwise, you're dependent on a cartridge maker to make special shells for you, or else you lose out on all the good rimmed cartridge options that are already there.

The reality is, shotguns were developed for hunting, and the number of hunters who can get by with a two-shot over-under, which relies on rimmed shells for extraction, is relatively large, compared to the number who would want a magazine-fed "AR-15 shotgun."

But that said, if a mechanical designer can solve the problem of making a gun that can fire rimmed and rimless shotshells interchangeably, I think you can get what you want, and have a market where other people want it, too.

But if you're asking ammo companies to develop specialized tactical rimless shells, that have to be fired in a special gun that can't fire rimmed shells...well, those shells are going to be five or ten bucks apiece, because the market of people who will buy a special gun to consume those special shells, is limited.

 

[Leadeye]

You can still get brass shotgun shells like they had a long time ago, they aren't cheap. I would just like for more regulat ammo to be available, even things like #6 12gauge 2 3/4 is hard to find.

 

[Michigan Slim]

You can still get brass shotgun shells like they had a long time ago, they aren't cheap. I would just like for more regulat ammo to be available, even things like #6 12gauge 2 3/4 is hard to find.

I have them in 12 and 20. I use .444 Marlin brass for .410 shells.

 

[PRasko]

Developing cartridges isn't cheap. And taking the risk to put out a new one takes coordination and a NEED for said cartridge.

Tactical users of shotguns are a very very small minority in the shotgun world. And adoption of a new shotshell that you can cram 20 rounds into and lug around the woods to hunt with isn't on most shotgun users wishlist. Or legal in most states.

 

[russc2542]

Keep in mind shotguns are also an exception to the laws for firearms over .50 cal. New style cartridge over .50" is going to have some explaining to do.

 

[Squid556]

It's not that shotguns gauge availability isn't changing, but it's declining. In recent times, we've gone from 10, 12, 16, 20, 28, .410 effectively down to 12, 20, (28 on it's way out, but I still want an Ithaca), .410.

• With 3-1/2" 12 gauges, why have a 10?
• With light 12s and 3" 20s, why have a 16?
• With 3" .410 shells, why worry about a 16 for a Turkey gun.

As noted above, a shotshell is really a short-range tool. Slightly longer chambers, while they involve more cleaning if shorter sub-length shells, allow for more oomph. Consolidating gauges makes for cheaper mass-produced shells, which benefits everyone.

With every "new" rifle cartridge, it comes with a flurry of "it ain't new" and "it doesn't do anything that X and Y can't do." It seems that the only place consumers realize this (as a market group) is shotguns.

One could maybe hope for a rimless shotshell for magazine-fed shotguns, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Rimless semiauto 12 gauge seems to have been tried and is dead.

That article pretty well hits the nail on the head. Thank you for dredging that up! I think that company’s execution was pretty smart. Not quite what I would do but I think they have a well thought out design.

Keeping the large 12 ga bore still hinders capacity with magazines, and if I was going to design one I’d find a way to go with a smaller bore at higher pressure to get the capacity advantage of the smaller shell while retaining most of the 12 ga performance.

 

[Michigan Slim]

That article pretty well hits the nail on the head. Thank you for dredging that up! I think that company’s execution was pretty smart. Not quite what I would do but I think they have a well thought out design.

Keeping the large 12 ga bore still hinders capacity with magazines, and if I was going to design one I’d find a way to go with a smaller bore at higher pressure to get the capacity advantage of the smaller shell while retaining most of the 12 ga performance.

I can load 1 ounce 20 gauges with brass hulls. I'm waiting on my MEC bushings to come so I can try Winchester 244 loads. I found my 12 gauge load already.