Larry Vickers bans Appendix Carry in his pistol classes

[lovemachine]

Jim Wilson:

Shooting Illustrated | The Flap Over Appendix Carry

 

[cedartop]

Mike Pannone - New CTT-Solutions Class Policy - Soldier Systems Daily

That one is highly disappointing to me. Unlike LAV, I had planned on taking more Pannone classes. When I took his advanced handgun last year he saw I was carrying appendix, he did a quick vetting, and we moved on. I wonder how much of this is just covering his Delta brothers six.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Mike states that he will be more strict with his evaluation, not that he is outright banning it like Larry did (for open enrollment only).

From this point on in every Covert Carry Class I will reserve final say on whether or not your holster is worn properly, in a suitable location and is appropriate for your body type and the pistol being used.

 

[cedartop]

Jim Wilson:

Shooting Illustrated | The Flap Over Appendix Carry

I hat to tell Jim Wilson he is wrong, but I simply must. He says appendix carry has been around a long time. That is simply not true, Kirk has told us for years it is a new fad.

 

[Streck-Fu]

I hat to tell Jim Wilson he is wrong, but I simply must. He says appendix carry has been around a long time. That is simply not true, Kirk has told us for years it is a new fad.

And Bruce Gray is in the same camp as Larry but with his justification rooted in his experiences in the early 80s. AIWB is just a fashion retread like Disco and Bell Bottoms.

 

[lovemachine]

I hat to tell Jim Wilson he is wrong, but I simply must. He says appendix carry has been around a long time. That is simply not true, Kirk has told us for years it is a new fad.

LOL

 

[cedartop]

And Bruce Gray is in the same camp as Larry but with his justification rooted in his experiences in the early 80s. AIWB is just a fashion retread like Disco and Bell Bottoms.

Disco is back? Awesome!

 

[rhino]

Back on track. pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » Scared of the Boogeyman

That "trick" is interesting. I'm not sure it's necessary, but it certainly minimizes the perceived risks when reholstering.

I have seen in person two people fire a round off while re-holstering. In both cases it was directly following the lecture about taking time to re-holster and doing so with the finger out of the trigger guard. It was after a safety briefing about the 4 rules are always in play. If you re-holster with your finger inside the trigger guard you are going to fire the gun. In both cases I have seen in person no one was hurt, and I cannot explain how that happened. Blaming gear and blaming holster position seem to be the easy way out in general. Tex shot himself the holster was irrelevant.

Excitement abounds on the range! It was definitely a valuable learning experience for all in attendance in each case.

I saw those 2 people you're talking about. And one of them was standing right next to me when it happened. I about **** myself.

Imagine my surprise when the gravel by my foot got powdered. I stay further back when people are reholstering now.

Mike Pannone - New CTT-Solutions Class Policy - Soldier Systems Daily

That's an interesting policy. I wonder if Mr. Pannone would allow me to use my AIWB. I fall into the body shape spectrum that he referenced, but I also wear the holster farther from the belt buckle than most.

I hat to tell Jim Wilson he is wrong, but I simply must. He says appendix carry has been around a long time. That is simply not true, Kirk has told us for years it is a new fad.

Hush, you! Bruce Nelson inventing his Summer Special holster and wearing AIWB was just a dream! All of the customers of his who did the same in the 1980s never happened! There's no way people have been carrying AIWB since handguns have existed. It's just not so, even though evidence to the contrary exists.

 

[chezuki]

I hat to tell Jim Wilson he is wrong, but I simply must. He says appendix carry has been around a long time. That is simply not true, Kirk has told us for years it is a new fad.

If we had to take kirk's ramblings as gospel, I'd put my blue gun in my mouth and pull the trigger.

 

[lovemachine]

If we had to take kirk's ramblings as gospel, I'd put my blue gun in my mouth and pull the trigger.

NOW this thread got interesting.

 

[chezuki]

Hush, you! Bruce Nelson inventing his Summer Special holster and wearing AIWB was just a dream! All of the customers of his who did the same in the 1980s never happened! There's no way people have been carrying AIWB since handguns have existed. It's just not so, even though evidence to the contrary exists.

And I only carry an M&P because it was used in a movie I've never seen!

 

[cedartop]

If we had to take kirk's ramblings as gospel, I'd put my blue gun in my mouth and pull the trigger.

I am trying to eat my lunch here. Now half of it is in my lap. I hope I didn't get any in my AIWB gun and holster.

 

[dusty88]

I'm not the expert in carry methods or instruction.

However, I will add that the best way for an individual to carry (or the best way on a given day, depending on clothing, gun etc) might differ from the best way to train for class.

The most obvious example is the Flash-Bang. It takes time to properly reholster. If you tried to use something like that in a class, you are sooner or later going to shoot yourself. Because a class with holster work means you are reholstering innumerable times, the efficiency of that maneuver has to come into consideration.

It seems contradictory to NOT use your regular carry method in class, but I think you sometimes to have to modify for the sake of LOADED repeat training.

In an emergency how many times are you going to reholster? Zero to 2 ? Thus the real reason you are "reholstering" so many times isn't to practice reholstering. In an emergency, I'd be shaking too badly to reholster quickly anyway. You are reholstering so you can get on with the next maneuver in the class, get back to a safe position for the sake of the rest of the class, etc.

I think perhaps we practice drawing/reholstering repeatedly with unloaded weapons in a new or otherwise compromising holster. We practice drawing and shooting with the difficult holster, but we never reholster it loaded when we are in a hurry. (and you can't eliminate the "hurry" when you are paying for an instructor plus have other students waiting for you)

We conversely use the most accessible, smoothest reholster method for loaded holster training. As often as possible, we carry that "smoothest use" holster if our body, clothing, law etc allow us to do so.

 

[chezuki]

I'm not the expert in carry methods or instruction.

However, I will add that the best way for an individual to carry (or the best way on a given day, depending on clothing, gun etc) might differ from the best way to train for class.

The most obvious example is the Flash-Bang. It takes time to properly reholster. If you tried to use something like that in a class, you are sooner or later going to shoot yourself. Because a class with holster work means you are reholstering innumerable times, the efficiency of that maneuver has to come into consideration.

It seems contradictory to NOT use your regular carry method in class, but I think you sometimes to have to modify for the sake of LOADED repeat training.

In an emergency how many times are you going to reholster? Zero to 2 ?

I think perhaps we practice drawing/reholstering repeatedly with unloaded weapons in a new or otherwise compromising holster. We use the most accessible, smoothest reholster method for loaded holster training. As often as possible, we carry that "smoothest use" holster if our body, clothing, law etc allow us to do so.

Training in a manner other than the way you actually carry kinda defeats the purpose of training at all.


I'd go so far as to say if your manner of carry is unsafe to train with, you need to find a better way to carry.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Training in a manner other than the way you actually carry kinda defeats the purpose of training at all.

Eh, I'm going to disagree there. There are many lessons and many drills that are independent of carry method. You can absolutely take a training class, carry in a different way, and still get things out of the class (or training session) and then adjust and apply to how you normally carry.

Sometimes I work out of a duty belt. Sometimes I work from a ready gun. Sometimes I work out of an IWB with concealment. Sometimes I work out of an OWB with no concealment. Why? Because I may have to work with any of that. Most of the time the lessons and skills from one translate readily to the others.

If I wanted to train with a particular instructor and they mandated an OWB retention holster, something I don't routinely use, I'd take the class, run it according to their rules, then adapt what I learned to me and my situation.

 

[dusty88]

Training in a manner other than the way you actually carry kinda defeats the purpose of training at all.

That's my normal training philosophy in many activities: train the way you will be performing the activity.
However, that doesn't mean you don't simulate or modify training in order to get more of it.

I'd go so far as to say if your manner of carry is unsafe to train with, you need to find a better way to carry.

When you are carrying all day, or even all year, probably not 1 incident will occur wherein you actually have to reholster. And the reholstering is probably not a "need" in an emergency. While we train for reholstering before the cop shows up, I think one can also plan on dropping, lowering, etc if they can't safely reholster.

I agree that the same holster that is easiest to use in class is probably the "ideal" holster to carry if your only priority is gun ownership. If however, you have priorities like appropriate dress for the occasion, concealment, weight, then modifications occur.

 

[iChokePeople]

If we had to take kirk's ramblings as gospel, I'd put my blue gun in my mouth and pull the trigger.

Chezuki wins the internet today. I'm not allowed to rep you, but only because the man is stomping on my right to rep and keep my junk warm.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And I only carry an M&P because it was used in a movie I've never seen!

You'll throw it away when you can 3D print something from a new movie you've never seen. Don't put it in your pocket, though.

 

[lovemachine]

Eh, I'm going to disagree there. There are many lessons and many drills that are independent of carry method. You can absolutely take a training class, carry in a different way, and still get things out of the class (or training session) and then adjust and apply to how you normally carry.

Sometimes I work out of a duty belt. Sometimes I work from a ready gun. Sometimes I work out of an IWB with concealment. Sometimes I work out of an OWB with no concealment. Why? Because I may have to work with any of that. Most of the time the lessons and skills from one translate readily to the others.

If I wanted to train with a particular instructor and they mandated an OWB retention holster, something I don't routinely use, I'd take the class, run it according to their rules, then adapt what I learned to me and my situation.

I totally understand what you're saying, but I disagree with that. For me, I will ONLY train with what I'm going to carry with. This way, muscle memory will set in, and I will know that my current EDC setup will work when I need it.

If the time ever comes when I need to use what I have trained, I don't want to try and remember that I carried IWB that day but took a training class the day before while wearing an OWB holster.

 

[chezuki]

If I wanted to train with a particular instructor and they mandated an OWB retention holster, something I don't routinely use, I'd take the class, run it according to their rules, then adapt what I learned to me and my situation.

While I certainly agree with taking new ideas and adapting them you your own system or "toolbox", an instructor demanding that I carry his way is going to turn me off to the point of looking elsewhere.

This is why I verified the AIWB would be allowed in your class Saturday before registering.