Instructors limiting gear/equipment choices??

[thunderchicken]

Ok this maybe stretching the OP's topic a bit but I gotta ask... So for those who are Instructors and RSO's, what kind of equipment makes you cringe or what prompts you to either call attention to it with the student or to give them a loaner or even bench a student. Basically what do you deem as unacceptable equipment?

 

[rhino]

Ok this maybe stretching the OP's topic a bit but I gotta ask... So for those who are Instructors and RSO's, what kind of equipment makes you cringe or what prompts you to either call attention to it with the student or to give them a loaner or even bench a student. Basically what do you deem as unacceptable equipment?

Holster that does not cover the trigger guard
Holster that won't stay attached to the belt/wasit band
Holster that collapses and requires using the support hand to hold it open to re-holster
Holster that doesn't retain the gun

Gun with mechanical problems that affect it safe operation like hammer follow, firing multiple rounds per trigger pull, discharge/firing when the safety is disengaged or when the decocker is used

 

[thunderchicken]

I can understand a number of concerns related to holster types and function or lack of function. And certainly, I can understand having issue with someone bringing a gun that the owner knows malfunctions. Likewise pulling someone's gun off the firing line if it malfunctions during a drill.

Maybe I should be more specific. Are there certain brands or models of equipment that when spotted make you instantly know it is going to be a problem?
In my mind I can see junk like a nylon uncle mikes holsters being an example.

 

[rhino]

I can understand a number of concerns related to holster types and function or lack of function. And certainly, I can understand having issue with someone bringing a gun that the owner knows malfunctions. Likewise pulling someone's gun off the firing line if it malfunctions during a drill.

Maybe I should be more specific. Are there certain brands or models of equipment that when spotted make you instantly know it is going to be a problem?
In my mind I can see junk like a nylon uncle mikes holsters being an example.

Yeah, any floppy nylon holster is going to be a problem. There are some very good holsters made primarily from nylon, but most people who have nylon holsters don't have those.

Unmodified Fobus paddle holsters are frequently a problem with the person drawing their gun only to find the holster still on the gun when they present. I know some people get fine service from them, but when I see one, I am not surprised when the owner had a problem.

 

[Coach]

I have seen two different gun a Jennings and a Jeminez (sp?) pistol literally fly apart while shooting. I put High Point, Kel Tec and SCCY right in that same category as junk. Normally do not see many of them in any class except Ladies Guided Shoot or Intro to Firearms as Parabellum. Most people with those guns do not seek training in my experience. I remember one client whose High Point malfunctioned on every magazine and it was a gun he carried. It always works he kept saying. I replied with not tonight.

I do not ban those brands from classes but I hate to see it when they show up even though it is infrequently. If they stay together they tend to malfunction and malfunctions compromise safety. Many people who are safe while the gun runs get unsafe as soon as it malfunctions. Many shooters do not perform well when on plan B, C, D. With many of those brands plan A usually goes out the window.


Crappy holsters are always and issue. People show up with a borrowed holster for class because they do not own a holster are always tedious at best. People who show up with the holster and the price tag is still on it. People who show up and plan to buy the holster before class for some 1970's pocket pistol and others of this variety are hard work.

People that show up without a belt, or a floppy dress belt.

I always try and work with people as much as possible because they are at least seeking training and that shows a desire to get it right, and they have no idea what they do not know. But there are certain gear requirements that must be met. I have an obligation to teach material and to keep the class and everyone in it safe. Reading the course description and following the gear requirements go a long way.

Besides gear there are a couple of other things that start new shooters off on the wrong foot. Well meaning relatives or friends that give bad advice on gear or technique. Counter staff at gun stores just looking to make a sale and not a quality sale.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have seen two different gun a Jennings and a Jeminez (sp?) pistol literally fly apart while shooting. I put High Point, Kel Tec and SCCY right in that same category as junk...I do not ban those brands from classes.

Allowing given equipment into a defensive pistol class means that you are agreeing it is good enough for the class and if it is good enough for the class it is good enough for defensive purposes.

So a 9mm that malfunctions frequently or catastrophically is good enough for a class/defensive purposes but a reliable .380 isn't?

Crappy holsters

I've gotten to the point I think crappy holsters cause more issues than crappy guns. Insufficient retention, collapsed holsters preventing proper holstering without flagging, worn retention straps creating an obstruction, holsters that migrate on the belt so the gun is always somewhere different, etc. As much as I hate to say it, Kydex has probably improved the quality average out there significantly. Good leather is pricey. Even bad leather is often pricey. Kydex gives the guy who would have bought an Uncle Mike's sausage sack more options to not to.

 

[bwframe]

It's been years since I've been to a class where someone brought their .380 to train with. I'm a student, so focus was on my own learning, but it seems as though I remember .380's having poor function issues on top of accuracy problems?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

... I remember .380's having poor function issues on top of accuracy problems?

Glock, Beretta, Sig, Walther, and probably others all make a .380 that functions just fine. The Glock .380 is a sub-4" group at 25y pistol.

 

[bwframe]

This was years before the Glock .380, although I've never seen a G42 in a class either.
I'm thinking the problem .380 gun was a Walther? Dunno. Maybe bulk .380 ammo was worse back then? Is there bulk ammo for .380?

 

[2A_Tom]

I have seen two different gun a Jennings and a Jeminez (sp?) pistol literally fly apart while shooting. I put High Point, Kel Tec and SCCY right in that same category as junk. Normally do not see many of them in any class except Ladies Guided Shoot or Intro to Firearms as Parabellum. Most people with those guns do not seek training in my experience. I remember one client whose High Point malfunctioned on every magazine and it was a gun he carried. It always works he kept saying. I replied with not tonight.

I do not ban those brands from classes but I hate to see it when they show up even though it is infrequently. If they stay together they tend to malfunction and malfunctions compromise safety. Many people who are safe while the gun runs get unsafe as soon as it malfunctions. Many shooters do not perform well when on plan B, C, D. With many of those brands plan A usually goes out the window.


Crappy holsters are always and issue. People show up with a borrowed holster for class because they do not own a holster are always tedious at best. People who show up with the holster and the price tag is still on it. People who show up and plan to buy the holster before class for some 1970's pocket pistol and others of this variety are hard work.

People that show up without a belt, or a floppy dress belt.

I always try and work with people as much as possible because they are at least seeking training and that shows a desire to get it right, and they have no idea what they do not know. But there are certain gear requirements that must be met. I have an obligation to teach material and to keep the class and everyone in it safe. Reading the course description and following the gear requirements go a long way.

Besides gear there are a couple of other things that start new shooters off on the wrong foot. Well meaning relatives or friends that give bad advice on gear or technique. Counter staff at gun stores just looking to make a sale and not a quality sale.

Thanks for not mentioning crappy 1911's. O shoot! I just did.

 

[Dead Duck]

Thanks for not mentioning crappy 1911's. O shoot! I just did.

Yeager?
Is that you?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeager?
Is that you?

Somebody who may or may not be posting in this thread may or may not have had a 1911 suffer a malfunction that couldn't be fixed on the line and required disassembly, which may or may not have revealed a broken part, which may or may not have kept him from shooting some drills in a particular class that may or may not have been going on at the time. Allegedly. Perhaps.

On an unrelated note, always try to take a spare gun to a training class. Things break.

 

[2A_Tom]

No, mine broke in class yesterday. A failure I have never seen before. I was able to get it running and only missed about ten minutes.

 

[thunderchicken]

First and foremost I am not nor have I ever been any kind of firearms instructor. I also acknowledge that most of my formal firearms training has been with LE instructors and was using a department issued Glock and holster. Since that time, I have only taken a few classes using my own equipment.

I can respect the fact that .380 ammunition is the lowest in the spectrum of defensive rounds. But, I think with quality ammo, and good shot placement it is fairly similar to 9mm. I could be wrong, I am just basing my opinion on reviews I have read and some demonstrations I have seen. Heck, even .45acp can be ineffective with poor shot placement. And given my acknowledgement that .380 is on the weaker end of the defensive round spectrum, I still think it can serve the purpose. Especially for someone new to the concept of carrying a gun for defense. It would be my opinion that it would be better for someone to show up to a class with a quality .380 that they are comfortable with and can shoot fairly well. Then coupling that with improved skills and knowledge would give the individual an improved chance at survival if they end up in a really bad situation. Isn't that part of why training is stressed?
I don't think you have to like it or endorse it as an instructor. But if it isn't a safety issue, or an issue that will hold up the rest of the class then that's your problem to deal with. Teach around it and help an individual improve their skills and knowledge but feel free to explain why they should consider carrying something better suited for the job. Just my opinion and I could be wrong, I have been before.

And just because I feel like being a butt... Isn't .380, technically a 9mm? My wife shoots a .380 and her ammo is labeled as .380/ 9mm Browning Court. Ok ok I'm just being humorous now

 

[bwframe]

.380 might be a consideration, when law enforcement and the military starts issuing it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

.380 might be a consideration, when law enforcement and the military starts issuing it.

You're a couple decades late, then. Kentucky State Police used to issue the Walther PPK .380 as a backup/off duty.

 

[Dead Duck]

....and don't forget 007.

 

[thunderchicken]

.380 might be a consideration, when law enforcement and the military starts issuing it.

In this we can agree to disagree. Just because the military or LE don't issue it doesn't diminish its potential for personal protection. Both military and LE have to settle for what they feel meets their needs and what can safely be handled by the masses. The military was issuing the 9mm back when 9mm ammo wasn't as good as it is now and was considered by many to be at the bottom of the defensive round spectrum.
For some especially a new shooter who wants to learn and develop new skills the .380 could be a viable platform to safely learn with. That is the point I was making. Sure it doesn't make it the best choice available but it's better to be armed with a .380 and some decent skills than to have a .45 and struggle to hit the broad side of a barn when locked inside.

 

[Vigilant]

You're a couple decades late, then. Kentucky State Police used to issue the Walther PPK .380 as a backup/off duty.

Indiana State Police used to issue the Beretta 84 as a backup/off duty pistol too.

 

[2A_Tom]

....and don't forget 007.

His is .25 auto.