Hogsett Administration is Closing Eagle Creek Pistol Range in Indy

[churchmouse]

"We" still are the government, but the collective "we" put these people in office. It's time "we" take some responsibility for that.

We do. They do not. They being those who sit on the porch waiting on the mailman.

 

[PistolBob]

I saw on facebook that someone was saying this range was builtin 1981 and used $50K in federal funding to get the job done. It was money from the Land and Water Conservation Fund of the Department of the Interior. According to a Counselor Gilmor, this was explained to the council some time back and the range would have to be open to the public because of the stipulations in the funding.

I don't know where to even start looking that up but there it is if anyone wants to.

 

[17 squirrel]

Elections have consequences...

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I'll remember this thread for "it's my right to have the government provide me a place to practice" when accusations of socialism and "voting largess from the public coffers" pops up for services and facilities you don't personally use or want, though.

When the system is broken beyond repair, is it wrong for tax-paying gun owners to work the system to try and get a piece of their tax money back through the use of an already existing facility?

 

[KG1]

Perhaps due to increased need for police training? *I* couldn't get in last Friday, which is when police are normally allowed in to practice on our own. The Friday before that was a pretty narrow window when I could get in. In-service dates have been slim pickings, too. Phylodog is in a better position than me to talk about that, though, if he's able to.

I'll remember this thread for "it's my right to have the government provide me a place to practice" when accusations of socialism and "voting largess from the public coffers" pops up for services and facilities you don't personally use or want, though. I

I want a public Turkish bath facility.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When the system is broken beyond repair, is it wrong for tax-paying gun owners to work the system to try and get a piece of their tax money back through the use of an already existing facility?

Wrong? Of course not. If there is excess capacity, then let the public use it. It is, however, socialism. A government owned facility competing against private businesses. So, it could be hypocritical.

 

[phylodog]

I saw on facebook that someone was saying this range was builtin 1981

IPD has been shooting at that location since the late 60's. I don't know what occurred in 1981, long before my time.

I was as surprised to hear about this as anyone else. I hadn't heard any rumblings of the sort.

 

[cbhausen]

Wrong? Of course not. If there is excess capacity, then let the public use it. It is, however, socialism. A government owned facility competing against private businesses. So, it could be hypocritical.

Just what the hell is "government owned", anyway?

I prefer to think "taxpayer owned". Same for "government funded". WE are the government. We AND our money.

 

[Glock Fan]

Take a look at the Indy Fiscal Ordinance No. 61,1981. That's where i got the info on the contribution from the Land & Water Conservation Fund of the Department of the Interior. The stipulation for the city to receive that $50,000 grant was that the Pistol range MUST be open to the public. That range was one of the facilities built for The National Sports Festival, hosted by Indianapolis in 1982.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Wow...nobody's rights are being infringed here.

The range is owned by the city government. It was built for the police. Even though the residents pay for it, taxpayers have no "right" to use it beyond what the city decides. Brownsburg has a really nice indoor range, taxpayer funded...off-limits to civilians, and their government is as Republican as you can get. Maybe there is more at play than surface-level partisan ideology here, maybe the city wishes to use its range for its police officers whenever it sees fit...is that really worth getting butthurt over?

What's next? Faux outrage because we can't work out in IFD's weight room? Butthurt because we can't borrow an IPS bus to haul our kids to a birthday party?

It was a nice perk while it lasted, and TFT did a hell of a job in their time running the place...but this isn't anything to get worked up about: our gun rights remain.

So what is your employment role in the new administration?

 

[long coat]

Take a look at the Indy Fiscal Ordinance No. 61,1981. That's where i got the info on the contribution from the Land & Water Conservation Fund of the Department of the Interior. The stipulation for the city to receive that $50,000 grant was that the Pistol range MUST be open to the public. That range was one of the facilities built for The National Sports Festival, hosted by Indianapolis in 1982.

Have a link to the one you are talking about? When I searched, that number was not about it.

 

[88E30M50]

Yes. Let's eliminate more options for the general public to get training and practice in the proper use of a firearm. Makes perfect sense.

My thoughts exactly. The left makes noise about gun safety being a problem, then the go out of their way to eliminate the means to improve gun safety. The day I believe the left has any interest in saving lives is the day I hear Shannon Watt's demand the Eddie Eagle is part of every elementary education curriculum.

 

[PaulF]

Take a look at the Indy Fiscal Ordinance No. 61,1981. That's where i got the info on the contribution from the Land & Water Conservation Fund of the Department of the Interior. The stipulation for the city to receive that $50,000 grant was that the Pistol range MUST be open to the public. That range was one of the facilities built for The National Sports Festival, hosted by Indianapolis in 1982.

FO62/1981 was issued to provide funding for the velodrome, and to upgrade the Eagle Creek Pistol range, in time for the 1982 National Sports Festival.

https://journals.iupui.edu/index.php/ccci/article/viewFile/15312/15713 (Fiscal ordinance 61 begins on page 14 of the PDF document, pg 341 of the original)

Interestingly enough, the ordinance itself doesn't mention any conditions being attached to the government monies, however...

...this article, from 1978, shows that the city was already getting unwanted federal attention for the existing pistol range at Eagle Creek:

INSIDE VIEW OF POLICE FIRING RANGE Eagle Creek Park Area In Middle Of Controversy NO TRESPASSING ALLOWED AT PISTOL RANGE State Says Range Must Be Opened For Public Use - By ROBERT N. BELL

The city's park system could lose all future federal funding if it does not halt operation of the police pistol range at Eagle Creek Park or provide new park ground to replace that taken up by the pistol range. The police department is the sole user of the land that was purchased with federal funds. Barry R. Muha, assistant grants coordinator for the natural resources department, said the federal law demands that all land purchased with federal funds be open to the public. The state is administrator of the federal grant program. DONALD R. McPherson, executive assistant to Mayor William H. Hudnut. confirmed the city has received a letter from Joseph L. Cloud, director of the State Natural Resources Department, giving the city until Oct. 1 to find a solutjon to the problem. Muha said the state has been asking the city for "five or six years" to take care of the problem and "nothing happened." He said the state was forced to tell the city that "it will be ineligible for federal funds until it complies with the regulation. This hasn't been a rash decision," he said. Cloud, in his letter to the city, said withholding of funds includes the withholding of the latest grant awarded to the city - $300,000 for a new park at East 30th and Rural streets. McPherson said he plans to meet with officials of the Parks and Recreation, Public Safety and Metroplitan Development departments to iron out a solution to the problem. He said the city will do what is necessary to insure the grant program is not put in jeopardy. Pl'BLIC SAFETY Director Murrill M. Lowry said the most viable solution to the problem is for the.city to purchase similar acreage somewhere else as a replacement for the park area taken by the pistol range. Lowry said moving the range would create many problems, including finding a location that would not be in a zoning violation and one that would be approved by neighbors The range is located just north of West 56th Street on an extension of High School Road. It is located in a triangle cut off by Interstate 465 on the West and Interstate 65 on the East. . Muha said purchase of replacement property for the range would have to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior. : Muha pointed out that the range at one time was open to the public but that in recent years it has been used solely by policemen What particularly irked federal officials was the posting of "No Trespassing" signs by the police department at the entrance to the range, that warned that violators are subject to arrest. The express intent of the federal law was to make land available for public use, one spokesman said"

I looked for a follow-up, but I didn't find one.

So, it looks like the original ECPR was seeded with federal money, was taken over by IPD, and then upgraded to Olympic specifications before being re-opened to the public on a limited basis...at least from what I could tell.

All of the information I can find is rather poorly sourced...none of it actually refers to the federal laws that govern the grants. I cannot tell if the money actually had strings attached or not, and if so if there were any limits to those conditions.

Strictly speaking, I don't know if the mayor has the power to do this or not. Eagle Creek Park is a city park, so it makes sense that it falls under city jurisdiction...however, it certainly looks like the feds had their fingers sunk pretty deeply into the project as well, and they may have a say in all this, too.

I am going to keep an eye on this...it has piqued my interest.

 

[PistolBob]

The mayor and his administration is pulling a fast one here. Otherwise they'd have waited until the TFT contract was up and made plenty of public notice about it beforehand...but that would have shown they give one stinky little grunt about the public that uses that facility. Wake up people, there is a new mayor/tyrant in town...and the 10% of you that voted in Marion County are now getting what you wanted.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The mayor and his administration is pulling a fast one here. Otherwise they'd have waited until the TFT contract was up and made plenty of public notice about it beforehand...but that would have shown they give one stinky little grunt about the public that uses that facility. Wake up people, there is a new mayor/tyrant in town...and the 10% of you that voted in Marion County are now getting what you wanted.

I agree. If for no other reason than cancelling the contract early, He's being a douchecanoe. Simply choose to not renew the contract. That would be the professional way to handle it.


Now if only we knew of a good gun lawyer around to fight it. Anybody know a Guy?

 

[Glock Fan]

 

[Glock Fan]

tried to post the original text of the Ordinance with no success. A friend reminds me that there was similar litigation in the late 90's when the City tried to bar range use by citizens.

 

[KG1]

My thoughts exactly. The left makes noise about gun safety being a problem, then the go out of their way to eliminate the means to improve gun safety. The day I believe the left has any interest in saving lives is the day I hear Shannon Watt's demand the Eddie Eagle is part of every elementary education curriculum.

Oh but you see they can never do that because it would force them to accept the fact that firearm ownership is a fundamental fabric of our society. I agree with you whole heartedly that the path to saving lives lies in the ability to educate as many people as possible in the proper handling of a firearm in our society.

Think of all the good that could be accomplished if they would put all of that Bloomberg money towards a national firearm education campaign such as Eddie the Eagle.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Just what the hell is "government owned", anyway?

I prefer to think "taxpayer owned". Same for "government funded". WE are the government. We AND our money.

Ok. It's still socialism. You can phrase it "government owned" or "publicly owned" or however. It's a distinction without a difference.

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production...Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[SUP][10][/SUP] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.

Again, I've got no problem with public use if there's excess capacity. I'd like to see something like Crosley's range here in Indy, I've not been there for years but it was the nicest public range I've ever been to. However, I'm also not constantly preaching that the government is always the problem that needs to get out of the way, that any attempt at corporate governance is socialism, etc. I'm one of those odd people who think the government can actually be helpful and improve the quality of life of the citizens, although that doesn't play well these days in the political debates. I've been labeled a socialist here for supporting a minimum wage, unions, and the concept that we actually need laws to check corporate influence. Something that's ACTUALLY socialist, taxpayer funded facilities that compete with privately held businesses (such as ITP, Parabellum, BGF when they are back up and running) is just peachy, though, if it's something we want to play with. That's where they hypocrisy comes in for some folks. I'm not pointing any fingers, just something to think about before they throw stones about "socialism" in the future.

 

[tbhausen]

I don't even live there so why should I care. Right?

Yeah, screw it. I'm a member of MCF&G so why should I care?