Gotcha Stages: USPSA & IDPA

[CB45]

What do you think is a tricky stage? I'm going to start designing new stages soon and would like some feedback as to what people really don't like.

Don't worry, results are private.

Discussion welcome!

 

[mongo404]

Are there such a thing as hidden targets in our sport?

 

[rvb]

I don't consider any of those "gotcha" stages.
When I think "gotcha" stages, stuff like mixed number of rounds ("shoot T1-T3 w/ 2 rounds, T4 w/ 6 rounds, T5-T6 w/ 3 rounds") and random draw stuff ("pick a card from the deck and the suit is the no-shoots") come to mind. Never see the first in uspsa, but used to see it in idpa all the time. Haven't seen the later in uspsa in several years. Basically, a course where the WSB screws you up and leads to penalties, not the actual course/shooting.

Everything in your list looks fun to shoot to me; it's all good!

-rvb

ps maybe Corey will be on here and can post the vid where I can be heard on film saying "Gotcha!" Haha. I created a position you had to run into and back out of for just one 10+ yd plate and I even told him before the match I wanted to see how many people I could catch doing the hokey-pokey stepping in and out of the box to get that plate...

-rvb

 

[BillD]

double tap

 

[BillD]

I don't like hard stops through out the COF for one target. I like a COF that flows and gives you something to shoot at on your way to another position. Good mix of steel and paper, I like the star.

I don't care for stages where you start with an empty gun, seems like stupid human tricks. What's the point of having a pistol competition where you start with an unloaded gun? So, I'm tested on putting in a mag and racking the slide?

 

[rvb]

I don't like hard stops through out the COF for one target. I like a COF that flows and gives you something to shoot at on your way to another position. Good mix of steel and paper, I like the star.

I don't care for stages where you start with an empty gun, seems like stupid human tricks. What's the point of having a pistol competition where you start with an unloaded gun? So, I'm tested on putting in a mag and racking the slide?

Empty gun starts aren't my favorite, but nothing really 'gotcha' about them.... now stages where you have to stash mags around the course, that can be 'gotcha' because a malfunction or couple extra shots can really screw your stage, so those seem to me to be cases where you can be defeated by the WSB, not the shooting...

Stages that 'flow' get boring.....

-rvb

 

[BillD]

Empty gun starts aren't my favorite, but nothing really 'gotcha' about them.... now stages where you have to stash mags around the course, that can be 'gotcha' because a malfunction or couple extra shots can really screw your stage, so those seem to me to be cases where you can be defeated by the WSB, not the shooting...

Stages that 'flow' get boring.....

-rvb

Not to nme

 

[Rob377]

Any stage I screw up on is a gotcha stage.

In all seriousness, the only thing I'd really consider a "gotcha" would be an egregious 180 trap.

 

[BillD]

Any stage I screw up on is a gotcha stage.

In all seriousness, the only thing I'd really consider a "gotcha" would be an egregious 180 trap.

I've been to majors where the 180 trap was so bad, they stationed RO's at that point just to catch it.

 

[Rob377]

I've been to majors where the 180 trap was so bad, they stationed RO's at that point just to catch it.

Thats my textbook example of a gotcha.

 

[cschwanz]

I don't consider any of those "gotcha" stages.
When I think "gotcha" stages, stuff like mixed number of rounds ("shoot T1-T3 w/ 2 rounds, T4 w/ 6 rounds, T5-T6 w/ 3 rounds") and random draw stuff ("pick a card from the deck and the suit is the no-shoots") come to mind. Never see the first in uspsa, but used to see it in idpa all the time. Haven't seen the later in uspsa in several years. Basically, a course where the WSB screws you up and leads to penalties, not the actual course/shooting.

Everything in your list looks fun to shoot to me; it's all good!

-rvb

ps maybe Corey will be on here and can post the vid where I can be heard on film saying "Gotcha!" Haha. I created a position you had to run into and back out of for just one 10+ yd plate and I even told him before the match I wanted to see how many people I could catch doing the hokey-pokey stepping in and out of the box to get that plate...

-rvb

sigh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrQ8SEL1ac&list=UUrD6zvPONSXPbDrI5vBI-Hw

about the :35 mark is the dance followed shortly by Ryan's mocking

 

[rvb]

an egregious 180 trap.

when I first started designing stages I built a couple of these. It certainly wasn't my intent; I wanted big transitions. Live and learn.

-rvb

 

[Grelber]

Went to a USPSA match this year (level 2 I think) where the steel was so close that they made crossing the boundary & shooting a DQ instead of a procedural.
Went to an IDPA match (level 2 also I think) a couple months later where they had a tippy prop & they made bumping it too hard a DQ.

I didn't like that stuff (& suspect it was not legal) and would likely have been all whiney and constipated looking if it had got me an early ticket home.

 

[Rob377]

Doesn't sound like it was in compliance with 2.1.3. Minimum distance is 23 feet. If there isn't a barrier, fault line has to be a 26. I'd call that a gotcha.

 

[rhino]

Empty gun starts aren't my favorite, but nothing really 'gotcha' about them.... now stages where you have to stash mags around the course, that can be 'gotcha' because a malfunction or couple extra shots can really screw your stage, so those seem to me to be cases where you can be defeated by the WSB, not the shooting...

Stages that 'flow' get boring.....

-rvb

Empty starts where all of your magazines are on the same table at the starting point are a gotcha for single stack and production shooters. You can't put mags in your front pockets like you can in Open, Limited, Limited 10 or you move to Open when you pull one out and put it in your mag.

And I'll add I can't reach my back pocket on my left side because of a shoulder injury, so that's a no go for me and anyone else who can't reach.

It takes a LONG time to shove 3-4 single stack magazines into mag pouches when you have to just stand there and do it.

 

[cschwanz]

Empty starts where all of your magazines are on the same table at the starting point are a gotcha for single stack and production shooters. You can't put mags in your front pockets like you can in Open, Limited, Limited 10 or you move to Open when you pull one out and put it in your mag.

And I'll add I can't reach my back pocket on my left side because of a shoulder injury, so that's a no go for me and anyone else who can't reach.

It takes a LONG time to shove 3-4 single stack magazines into mag pouches when you have to just stand there and do it.

You can't put mags in front pockets and you have so many it takes a while to stuff them in your pouches. While true, everyone in the division has to do that, so its still a level playing field.


I don't think anything covered is much of a "gotcha" type presentation other than something like "engage with 2 rounds, reload and re-engage with 3 rounds" or something we aren't normally accustomed to. i have no problem with long shots, memory stages, targets hidden behind walls or barrels, etc

 

[Coach]

I've been to majors where the 180 trap was so bad, they stationed RO's at that point just to catch it.

Such as 2012 Limited Nationals where if you ended at a particular port, which forced you to stick your gun way out and through it to hit the target. but if you pulled the gun back in to show clear you were DQ'ed. You were forced to step out through the port or go home. but if you went to that port before the end you could pull back in and go on. I could not believe they were doing it like this but they did. It was bull**** plain and simple.

 

[rhino]

You can't put mags in front pockets and you have so many it takes a while to stuff them in your pouches. While true, everyone in the division has to do that, so its still a level playing field.

The fact that everyone has to do it doesn't make it suck less.

 

[jakemartens]

[video=youtube_share;nXRhRSWiR5g]http://youtu.be/nXRhRSWiR5g[/video]

this is a good example of a really bad stage design

At Area 8 a couple years ago they had a very similar stage where the muzzle blast from Coach's gun took the hat off the RO (and we are pretty sure filled his shorts with ****)

KS Sectional they had a piece of steel that activated 3 swingers that were covered by no shoots, that is bull****
also on that same stage they had a shopping cart that was release by hitting a popper and had a target in it that rolled down a ramp...besides all the crap barely working it was bull****

Area 3 has this windmill target that they like to use, it is not fun and a gotcha

over the top stupid human tricks, handcuffed to a table or wall to try and force sho/who
or carrying some prop that has procedurals attached to it if you don't throw it in a bucket or some stupid **** like that
if you want sho/who thru in a standard or classifier, let the field course be freestyle

anytime you a stage designer starts coming up with gotcha stuff the stage usually ends up sucking or people drive dump truck through it because they missed all the holes trying to be too creative.

Take a stage, decide what 2-5 or maybe 6 spots you want to force a shooter to go to and give them stuff to shoot at on the way to those spots.

create challenges by varying distance and transitions, with some use of hard cover and no shoots. Throw some steel in there to mix it up, couple of open paper and mini popper mixed in can cause lots of challenges

 

[ModernGunner]

A 'tricky' stage? A stage where there are multiple options in exact location and distance at one station, ALL of which may be either 'shoot or don't shoot', so the stage cannot be memorized and demands thought, discernment, and discretion?

JMO, but courses of fire that require the shooter start with an empty gun and / or grab mags from a table and stick them in mag pouches as part of the timing of the CoF appear to have little practical value.