"Get out of my house"

[SemperFiUSMC]

Some members on here debating the legal aspects, I have something to say....

My home is secure, there is no reason for anyone to be in here other than me and my wife. So anyone who is in my house unauthorized is immediately considered a threat.

I consider any threat in my house to be life threatening because they are not there to dance a waltz with me or my wife, they are there to steal, plunder or cause harm.

I plan on them leaving in a body bag, and after that I do not care what happens because myself and wife will still be alive.

I take this seriously, because in a blink of an eye or any hesitation can and will result in me or my wife being killed. I plan on being around a while longer, and will do what ever it takes to ensure that me and my wife live to our golden years.

So this can be debated till the cows come home and the milk is sour, each person to their own on how they react, I just hope and pray YOU make the right choice because I know what I'm going to do, and I hope that I don't have to attend the funeral of a beloved INGO member because some people want to think and debate on what is justifiable.

+1 and repped.

It's easy for most people to sit on their high horse and pontificate on what they would do in a situation, tell you about legal ramifications when they have a GED and don't know the first thing about the law, and why their restraint is good and your action is bad.

Screw them. They aren't going to be the one not there to walk your little girl down the aisle on her wedding day. They aren't going to be the one who doesn't get to roll over at night and tell your wife you love her. They aren't going to be the one that thinks it shouldn't end like this while taking the final breath of life.

Here's my life philosophy. I carry a gun because my will not to die is stronger than my will to allow someone who would do me harm to live.

 

[bigus_D]

Bigus, take off the blinders man, I'm not saying that there aren't "accidental entry" scenarios, I'm saying they are few and far between compared with criminal entries.

I still disagree. I mean, I agree that they are few and far between, but believe there are more than 1 in 100.

 

[IndySSD]

I still disagree. I mean, I agree that they are few and far between, but believe there are more than 1 in 100.

Well, given that most of my info comes from first responders, it's possible that the accidentals don't get reported to leo/fire/medics.... but out of the reported incidents (and by reported I mean 911 / dispatch calls, not TV reporters) it's WAY lower than 1/100, more like 1/200 or 1/500 even I would say.

I'll try to dig up some statistics but there are LOTs of home invasions every month.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I still disagree. I mean, I agree that they are few and far between, but believe there are more than 1 in 100.

Well, given that most of my info comes from first responders, it's possible that the accidentals don't get reported to leo/fire/medics.... but out of the reported incidents (and by reported I mean 911 / dispatch calls, not TV reporters) it's WAY lower than 1/100, more like 1/200 or 1/500 even I would say.

I'll try to dig up some statistics but there are LOTs of home invasions every month.

Not meaning to get in the middle of your tussle, but so what?

Bigus_D, if 50% of the home invaders would do you harm and the other 50% are accidental entries, are you willing to take a chance that the one guy you catch won't kill you?

SafeShootingDad, if 1 of 500 invaders is an autistic kid are you willing to take the risk of shooting that one kid?

If you both answered yes you're both right. If you both answered no you're both right. If one of you answered yes and the other answered no, you're both right.

Didn't acting on what we believe get us hope and change? How about act on what you know. Don't ever confuse action and outcome in a stressful situation. As long as you can justify your actions (not the outcome) first and foremost to yourself, then potentially to a jury, you've done the right thing.

 

[IndySSD]

Not meaning to get in the middle of your tussle, but so what?

Bigus_D, if 50% of the home invaders would do you harm and the other 50% are accidental entries, are you willing to take a chance that the one guy you catch won't kill you?

SafeShootingDad, if 1 of 500 invaders is an autistic kid are you willing to take the risk of shooting that one kid?

If you both answered yes you're both right. If you both answered no you're both right. If one of you answered yes and the other answered no, you're both right.

Didn't acting on what we believe get us hope and change? How about act on what you know. Don't ever confuse action and outcome in a stressful situation. As long as you can justify your actions (not the outcome) first and foremost to yourself, then potentially to a jury, you've done the right thing.

Great point. That point being conceded, I think any further posting by me in this thread would not be productive.

 

[bigus_D]

If you both answered yes you're both right. If you both answered no you're both right. If one of you answered yes and the other answered no, you're both right.

+1 and repped.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I assume you feel comfortable saying the bolded part because you live in an issolated and huge parcel of land with a moat filled with allegators and draggons and a draw bridge and a manned gate. Maybe it is just because you never leave your windows open and always have the doors locked, even when coming and going while working in the yard or whatever.

Sure, it is more likely that an univited "guest" is going to be a bad guy, but those other situations DO happen all the time. I'd bet the ratio of mal-intentioned intrudors to 'accidental' intrudors is way lower than 99 to 1 (as described above)... even with your moat and draw bridge.

No I don't "live in an isolated and huge parcel of land with a moat filled with alligators and dragons and a draw bridge and a manned gate."

I live in America, not some darn ignorant European country.

I also don't live in a fantasy world, that's why I have taken precautions to make sure there is no "accidental entry" into my home.

I know my neighbors, they know me, I'm lucky to live where I do.

If someone is wandering in my house at 2am in the morning or any other time, I can guarantee that with 99.99999999999% certainty of every fiber in my body they there to pillage, plunder, and to cause harm and that I fear for myself and wife's life.

They're not there to share Chips Ahoy chocolate chip cookies and a tall glass of cold milk and tell ghost stories and build a campfire outside and get all warm and fuzzy and sing Kum Ba Yah .

For any and all other thoughts you think about, refer to the quoted paragraph below, and may God be with you if you wait and hesitate.

So this can be debated till the cows come home and the milk is sour, each person to their own on how they react, I just hope and pray YOU make the right choice because I know what I'm going to do, and I hope that I don't have to attend the funeral of a beloved INGO member because some people want to think and debate on what is justifiable.

 

[Hammerhead]

No I don't "live in an isolated and huge parcel of land with a moat filled with alligators and dragons and a draw bridge and a manned gate."

I live in America, not some darn ignorant European country.

I also don't live in a fantasy world, that's why I have taken precautions to make sure there is no "accidental entry" into my home.

I know my neighbors, they know me, I'm lucky to live where I do.

If someone is wandering in my house at 2am in the morning or any other time, I can guarantee that with 99.99999999999% certainty of every fiber in my body they there to pillage, plunder, and to cause harm and that I fear for myself and wife's life.

They're not there to share Chips Ahoy chocolate chip cookies and a tall glass of cold milk and tell ghost stories and build a campfire outside and get all warm and fuzzy and sing Kum Ba Yah .

For any and all other thoughts you think about, refer to the quoted paragraph below, and may God be with you if you wait and hesitate.

IBM, if you replace the cookies with pie, I'll be happy to break into your house just so we can do this activity. It sounds like fun.

 

[roscott]

Everyone, thanks for the various input. All good points, one way or another.

Final analysis. Not that you need my approval, but you did good.

Recommendation: If you didn't pull the trigger this time you probably won't next time. Get a can of bear spray.

Gotta contend this one, however. I definitely would have shot him, had he simply done any number of things differently. Had he taken another step toward me, I would have shot him.

I didn't want to shoot him, but I was DEFINITELY prepared to. No question about that part.

Again, thanks for all the input. Good stuff to think about for next time. (If it ever happens again.)

 

[Sausagecake]

Reid, I know I am way late to this (this is Travis), you did well buddy. Obviously the right call is 911, but you did wonderfully considering the situation.

Hang in there man!

 

[deadsquirrel]

which college town was this??

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok, so I'm probably going to regret asking this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm sure this isn't what a couple of you are saying, but others I'm not so sure of.

Are you guys saying that the moment you realize the person in front of you is not suppose to be there in your home, in the middle of the night, armed or unarmed, you're going to shoot them? No threat assessment, just you're not suppose to be here, bang.

 

[Armed Eastsider]

Ok, so I'm probably going to regret asking this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm sure this isn't what a couple of you are saying, but others I'm not so sure of.

Are you guys saying that the moment you realize the person in front of you is not suppose to be there in your home, in the middle of the night, armed or unarmed, you're going to shoot them? No threat assessment, just you're not suppose to be here, bang.

If I cant tell its not a police officer, firefighter or somebody I know, then yes. I will take no chances. The intruder could pull a gun in a heartbeat and I would be 6 feet under.

 

[SavageEagle]

If I cant tell its not a police officer, firefighter or somebody I know, then yes. I will take no chances. The intruder could pull a gun in a heartbeat and I would be 6 feet under.

Guy just stops dead, stares at you the moment he sees you and puts his hands up saying "Don't Shoot!". You still shoot him, gun trained on the guy with his arms up. No ordering him to the ground, nothing. Still just BANG?

 

[Armed Eastsider]

Guy just stops dead, stares at you the moment he sees you and puts his hands up saying "Don't Shoot!". You still shoot him, gun trained on the guy with his arms up. No ordering him to the ground, nothing. Still just BANG?

Under the perfect circumstances, no I would not shoot. But chances are It will be the middle of the night, dark, I will be out of it from waking up, and the bad guy will probably not hold up his hands.

 

[SavageEagle]

Under the perfect circumstances, no I would not shoot. But chances are It will be the middle of the night, dark, I will be out of it from waking up, and the bad guy will probably not hold up his hands.

Fair enough.

I'd still like to hear from others on this. Some of you just sound like the moment you'd see anyone not suppose to be there you just start shooting and sort it out when the smoke clears regardless the situation. I just want a little clarification.

Me personally, 2 situations, 1, I'm upstairs with the rest of the family, I will be yelling for them to leave while I wait off to the side at teh top of my stairs while the wife dials 911. If I'm downstairs, me drawing my gun will be their only chance to give up instantly. Reaching for anything other than the ceiling or floor as they drop to it will be met with almost certain lead poisoning.

In my mind, if my gun is out of the holster and they don't have a gun in their hand, it's going to take a couple seconds for them to get to a gun. That's enough time to go or no-go. If they burst down the door, I've probably not got a chance in hell though.

Like the OP, I'm not sure I would have shot. He had his gun on the intruder and had backup. Might not have been the best person to handle a gun, but still he had two guns on the guy. He had light on the intruder and the intruder (according to the OP) never went for anything other than the door. The OP had time to react. I think he did the right thing not to shoot him. He had no reason to. He had the gun trained on the intruder. Intruder posed no immediate threat. If he'd went for anything other than the door handle and then the OP didn't shoot, then I'd been worried.

 

[bigus_D]

In my mind, if my gun is out of the holster and they don't have a gun in their hand, it's going to take a couple seconds for them to get to a gun. That's enough time to go or no-go.

In an encounter like this, the first one to act has a distinct advantage. Even if your gun is drawn, and if the distances are close enough, the aggressor can likely make a move. In the time it takes your brain to realize that he is moving and then make a counter move, he could be on top of you.

The example provided above, both homeowner and assailant had their guns in their respective holsters... sure if your gun is already drawn you have an advantage over not having it drawn, but the same dynamic of first to act still plays an important part.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Fair enough.

I'd still like to hear from others on this. Some of you just sound like the moment you'd see anyone not suppose to be there you just start shooting and sort it out when the smoke clears regardless the situation. I just want a little clarification.

Me personally, 2 situations, 1, I'm upstairs with the rest of the family, I will be yelling for them to leave while I wait off to the side at teh top of my stairs while the wife dials 911. If I'm downstairs, me drawing my gun will be their only chance to give up instantly. Reaching for anything other than the ceiling or floor as they drop to it will be met with almost certain lead poisoning.

In my mind, if my gun is out of the holster and they don't have a gun in their hand, it's going to take a couple seconds for them to get to a gun. That's enough time to go or no-go. If they burst down the door, I've probably not got a chance in hell though.

Like the OP, I'm not sure I would have shot. He had his gun on the intruder and had backup. Might not have been the best person to handle a gun, but still he had two guns on the guy. He had light on the intruder and the intruder (according to the OP) never went for anything other than the door. The OP had time to react. I think he did the right thing not to shoot him. He had no reason to. He had the gun trained on the intruder. Intruder posed no immediate threat. If he'd went for anything other than the door handle and then the OP didn't shoot, then I'd been worried.

I know I shouldn't, but what the hell.

The law requires only that I be able to articulate a fear for my life. I'll spell out that fear in about 20 seconds. The law does not require I give any warning or give an intruder any time to turn and face me. Morality dictates that I protect my family, not give an intruder a chance to see the error of their ways and give them an opportunity to kill me. Survival requires that I safely eliminate all threats, known and unknown, to my life. As far as I am concerned anyone who breaks into my home committed suicide as soon as they crossed the threshold. No deposit, no returns.

With those predicates set, if someone is in my home that does not live there and has not been invited to be there, I will shoot them dead. I will not give any warning. I will not say halt, freeze, stop, put it down, pick it up, drop it or utter any other noise that will give them a chance to print me. If the only target they present is the back of the head, then so be it. That's where I'll shoot them. There is no shame in living.

Now I know, someone's getting the urge to call me a murderer. Whatever. I'm a military tactician. I don't see a single intruder. I see a home invasion. Where there is one I expect many. I'll take down the first threat knowing that there are probably two or three other individuals in my home. That's what my training and experience tell me. One of them could be behind me right now waiting to shoot me in the head. The threat I am facing is the primary target. After dirtbag #1 is down I can address other potential threats that remain. Is that harsh? Nope. It's survival.

Hesitation kills. If you sit there and diddle while a secondary threat flanks you, you're dead. You're dead, and your wife and kids are dead too. And why? Because in a misguided and mistaken display of compassion you hesitated and allowed someone to kill you. Sucks to be you. It doesn't suck to be the bad guy. I would rather it suck to be him.

Now here are my rules for gun fighting. I've highlighted a few important ones and will discuss after.

Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

And the Golden Rule

One shot, one kill.

By contrast here's another set of rules (sorry, I had to).

Navy Rules for Gun Fighting

1. Adopt an aggressive offshore posture
2. Send the Marines
3. Drink Coffee

Number 11. There is no such thing as a fair gun fight. Get over it. It is about winning, not following the Marquess of Queensbury rules.
Number 12. Most important rule. My plan is to eliminate all threats before they eliminate me. Period. If you're plan is to assess the situation and decide what to you you'll lose.
Number 15. Head shots from the flanks or rear have the best odds of no return fire. Use them.
Number 16. Always assume there are more threats. It's the guy you won't see that will kill you.
Number 19. I've already resolved to kill anyone that enters my home without cause. You can't develop stones situationally.
Number 20. See number 15.
Number 21. Most crimes are committed by somone that knows their victim. Just because you know someone doesn't mean they won't kill you.
Number 23. The best way to survive a gun fight is to not have to engage in one. Create multiple layers of personal protection. My first layer of security is my dogs. It is unlikely that someone would break into my home while my Maligator tries to bite them. Most likely they'll move on to a less secure home. But if they did come in, I would know that I have a real life and death struggle coming.

I'm not calling anyone a coward for not wanting to shoot another human. But if you can't say unequivocally you'll shoot someone as soon as they enter your home uninvited, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE buy a can of bear spray and a really loud horn alarm. I would rather see [strike]everyone[/strike] all the good guys breathing at the end of an encounter. Some people are not meant to point guns at other people and pull the trigger.

 

[Joe Williams]

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The law requires only that I be able to articulate a fear for my life. snip.

No, that is not what the law requires.

 

[bigus_D]

No, that is not what the law requires.

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Yes it is.
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no it isn't
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yes it is
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