Freshman 101 ~ Shots fired on campus, now what?

[Bill of Rights]

I disagree with those here that said at least it is a good start. Training to win a gun fight or even survive one without a gun of your own is a joke. It is a pretend world where we continue to kid ourselves that the solution to stopping school shootings is something other than good people having a gun and being able to use it effectively. As a people how many more object lessons is it going to take? 100 people killed in school shootings in this country since Feb. 1996, and more than that wounded. Have two school fires in the same year that each kill someone and what would the response be? It would be huge and it would be nation wide and it would cost millions at a min. Allowing permit holding to teachers to carry would cost nothing for the schools and make a huge difference in the safety of school children across the nation.

I don't think anyone disputes Cooper's first rule of gunfighting: Have a gun. The point is that if you are armed and caught in White or if you are unarmed for any reason, you don't just kneel down and allow the BG to put a round in your skull, you DO something, (almost) anything to survive and if possible, take out the BG. Flight 93 comes to mind. Granted, the BGs were not armed with guns but box cutters, but the point is that given the choice of "We're all going to die if we let them do what they want." vs. "Some of us may die, but if we take them out, some of us may live. Let's roll.", I'd like to think I'd choose the latter.

It's like your sig line says: To prevail, you must ACT!

I know you don't mean that only as an ad for a training business, so in what better context can it be applied?

Blessings,
B

 

[Coach]

For a school to count this as being proactive is crap. For some University President to stand before the board and say we have trained all of our incoming freshman on how to react, and actually count a suicide charge as training is complete ********. Of course we are going to do something and of course we are not going to yield. Goes without saying here. But for some insititution to defend their position for showing a video on how to survive a gunfight without one does not count as preparing.
Putting up cameras does not count nor help either all that will accomplish is allowing the History Channel to make a spectacular documentary later on.

I don't want to be like Flight 93. I want to win. Allow me to carry my gun at school and the chances are that the bastard at the door with a gun trying to do harm is the one in the most danger. I can defend myself and the other 30 kids a whole lot better. I have a plan to prevail in my classroom in a shooter situation, but I want to puke thinking about having to try and prevail in such a situation without a gun. As a teacher I am being asked to defend that classroom of students and not being allowed the tools to do it.

I know some administrator has stood before a good of parents or the press and said we are now prepared for the shooter on campus incident because of this video. NO they are not. But they have a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I suppose that my biggest thing about the whole thing about improvised weapons... is that... Why should we have to improvise?

Improvisation takes time. Drawing your weapon takes seconds.

Make your own choice.

 

[jimbo-indy]

Look at the facts for Columbine to Virginia Tech and all the other school shootings. The unarmed students & teachers huddled in fear or panicked. I do not recall any mention of anyone offering even token resistance to the shooter. Today, students are taught to be passive when confronted. I find it hard to believe that a group of 20 or more couldn't have overpowered a single armed man. The problem is that none would take the first step. In fact, as mentioned in the referenced article, councaling was available because even thinking about "bad things" was too stressful for the students. (where do we get our brave solders form, not Universities). On the other hand, if a shooter entered a room where even one of the occupants was armed, the shooter wouldn't know where to shoot first, leaving the defender a better chance to return aimed fire. That's the beauty of concealed carry, the BG doesn't know where return fire will be coming from.
At Columbine, many died while the police responded, secured the perimeter and made ready. By the time they actually made entry, the shooters had killed themselves.

 

[Coach]

Look at the facts for Columbine to Virginia Tech and all the other school shootings. The unarmed students & teachers huddled in fear or panicked. I do not recall any mention of anyone offering even token resistance to the shooter. Today, students are taught to be passive when confronted. I find it hard to believe that a group of 20 or more couldn't have overpowered a single armed man. The problem is that none would take the first step. In fact, as mentioned in the referenced article, councaling was available because even thinking about "bad things" was too stressful for the students. (where do we get our brave solders form, not Universities). On the other hand, if a shooter entered a room where even one of the occupants was armed, the shooter wouldn't know where to shoot first, leaving the defender a better chance to return aimed fire. That's the beauty of concealed carry, the BG doesn't know where return fire will be coming from.
At Columbine, many died while the police responded, secured the perimeter and made ready. By the time they actually made entry, the shooters had killed themselves.

There have been school shootings were students ended it before the police could do anything. There was also an incident ten years ago or so where the asst. Principal ran to his car and got his gun and stopped it. The media never covered that.

Anybody who wants to say people who are in classroom under fire from the doorway should be more aggressive might want to reflect on that comment. You charge right into the muzzle while it is blazing. By the time the gunman pauses or reloads it may be too late.

There was a Professor at Virgina Tech who was holocaust survivor that tried and failed to stop the gunman. People have tried but they have failed. Don't expect a victory when only one side is armed.

Statistics show that the gunman turn the gun on themselves when ever someone can or does start shooting back. The answer is simple meet violence with violence as soon as possible.

 

[Bill of Rights]

There have been school shootings were students ended it before the police could do anything. There was also an incident ten years ago or so where the asst. Principal ran to his car and got his gun and stopped it. The media never covered that.

Anybody who wants to say people who are in classroom under fire from the doorway should be more aggressive might want to reflect on that comment. You charge right into the muzzle while it is blazing. By the time the gunman pauses or reloads it may be too late.

There was a Professor at Virgina Tech who was holocaust survivor that tried and failed to stop the gunman. People have tried but they have failed. Don't expect a victory when only one side is armed.

Statistics show that the gunman turn the gun on themselves when ever someone can or does start shooting back. The answer is simple meet violence with violence as soon as possible.

As I said, I agree with Cooper's first rule of gunfighting: Have a gun. I find "gun-free zones" despicable, and I do think they should be abolished in toto. Like you, I don't want to die, I want to win. Like you, I will draw and fire on a threat if necessary. I can't have that option available to me in some places under current law without becoming that which I despise: A criminal. Call it mala prohibita if you like, but the fact is that it's still the (IMHO unConstitutional) law. I choose instead to work within the system and lobby our state reps and senators to change the law. We were within a single vote of doing that last session. I want to see that law pass. I'm hopeful that the membership here will assist in that effort when the legislature returns to Indianapolis. Calls, letters, even emails have some value. If I can do it again, I will again go to testify for this bill, if it is substantially similar to the one introduced last term.

We can't affect federal GFZs at the state level, but perhaps we can get a push re-started at the state level that others will adopt and lead to change at that level as well.

Blessings,
B

 

[Scout]

After reading this thread I thought I'd upload a deleted scene from a movie. Maybe it is too close to real life, maybe it didn't fit with the movie. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this really was happening.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI4jRaJvDjk[/ame]

 

[techres]

In 2006 a high shool student did take on a school shooter with a pencil. Here is his story:

Everyday Hero: Jeff May
High school student Jeff May managed to tackle a school shooter and save the lives of his fellow students.

The ninth-graders in Missy Dodds's seventh-period study hall were restless that Monday afternoon, March 21, 2005. It was the last period of the day. All eyes were on the big clock on the front wall of the classroom -- just minutes until the final bell.

Jeff May sat alone at a table calculating algebra problems. If he cranked through his schoolwork now, he figured, he could meet up with a buddy that afternoon to shoot baskets in his aunt's driveway.

When a troubled student started shooting, Jeff May tackled him.
May was nearly a full-blooded Ojibwe, like many of the students and teachers at Red Lake Senior High School in northern Minnesota. The 15-year-old didn't mind studying, but he much preferred playing basketball.

Suddenly there was frantic pounding on the door. Neva Rogers, one of the teachers, rushed into the classroom, breathless. "Somebody's shooting out there!" Rogers said.

Just a few minutes earlier, a young man in a black trench coat, his hair spiked into thorns, had walked into the building carrying three guns. One of the security guards stationed at the main entrance, Derrick Brun, confronted him. Even though the guard was unarmed, the gunman shot him twice, killing him.

Then he fired another shot down the hallway, narrowly missing Rogers, a 62-year-old English teacher. Dodds quickly locked the door and snapped off the lights. "Get in back!" she told the students. "Hide!"

May flipped a table up on its side, spilling his math book and papers to the floor as he knelt behind the makeshift bunker. Nearby crouched his best friend, Dewayne Lewis, and another classmate, Alicia White. For months, May had had a crush on White, but he hadn't mustered the courage to ask her out.

The classroom was absolutely silent. Suddenly there were shots in the hallway outside -- loud booms that sounded like textbooks slammed to the floor. As seconds ticked by, the shots boomed louder, closer.

An instant later, the window beside the locked door was shattered by a shotgun blast. A burly figure in a trench coat and combat boots climbed through the two-foot- wide opening. May recognized Jeff Weise. Although the two boys both lived on the reservation, they had never spoken.

Other students sometimes picked on the troubled boy. For the past few months, Weise had been tutored at home. He was depressed and being treated for suicidal tendencies. Doctors had prescribed Prozac to try to get him into a better balance. But today Weise carried a 12-gauge shotgun, a .22-caliber semiautomatic pistol and a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol. On his face was a frightening smile.

"God save us," said Mrs. Rogers.

Weise looked over at her. He leveled his .40-caliber and fired. The bullet struck her in the head, and she slumped to the floor, dead. He then turned to the students huddled in the back of the room. "Do you guys believe in God?" he asked.

"No," answered one boy, Chon Gai' la Morris. May said nothing.

Weise pointed his gun and opened fire. Boom. May watched his best friend Dewayne slump. Boom. Alicia White, May's crush, crumpled. Boom. Boom. Boom. Chanelle Rosebear, Chase Lussier and Thurlene Stillday lay fatally wounded.

The killer aimed his gun at Dodds and squeezed the trigger. Click. It was empty. He reached to reload.

As soon as Weise started shooting, Jeff May thought, Somebody's got to stop this guy. At six-foot-three and 300 pounds, he realized he was one of the few kids who might have a chance against the gunman, who stood six feet tall and weighed about 250.

May was a varsity football player, but he was no tough guy. Still, he thought, if I can slow him down, maybe I can save some lives. At least he might buy a little time until police arrived. May figured his best chance was to surprise Weise, take him down. Glancing around for a weapon, he saw nothing. Then he realized he was still clutching the pencil he'd used to calculate his algebra problems.

In one motion, May lunged at the shooter and jabbed the pencil hard into his side. But something deflected the blow. It turned out Weise was wearing a bulletproof vest swiped from his police officer grandfather, Daryl Lussier.

Earlier that afternoon, Weise had stopped at Lussier's house, where he shot and killed his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend, Michelle Sigana. Then Weise had grabbed the keys to Lussier's patrol car and drove to the school.

No one knows what set Weise off that day. But he was clearly determined to kill as many people as he could.

May tried to wrestle him to the ground, but Weise stubbornly held his own. Then he managed to raise his reloaded pistol and fire right at May's face.

May saw a bright flash of light and collapsed hard on the floor. The bullet had entered his right cheek, fractured his jaw and lodged in his neck, near his vertebrae. Blood splattered Weise's black boots.

The two had grappled for just enough time, witnesses estimate, to spare the lives of the remaining dozen people in the classroom. In total, Weise spent less than ten minutes at the high school, but left eight people dead and another seven wounded in the deadliest school shooting since Columbine.

Four Red Lake police officers arrived and exchanged gunfire with Weise in the hallway outside Mrs. Dodds's classroom. One officer shot him three times. The troubled boy staggered back into the classroom and fatally shot himself in the head. Speaking for herself and the other survivors, Dodds says Jeff May saved their lives when he jumped at the killer. His brave action did not surprise her. "I totally would expect that of him," she says.

May was airlifted to MeritCare Hospital, 105 miles away in Fargo, North Dakota. He suffered a stroke that immobilized his left side and required surgery to remove the bullet. For many tense hours, his family members feared they would lose him. He is recovering, slowly, with two daily hourlong sessions each of physical, occupational and speech therapy.

Still, lying in his hospital bed two months after the shooting, May says if he had to relive that day, he would once again abandon the shelter of the overturned table and try to stop the shooter. Why?

"To make sure so many people don't die," he says.

An unarmed sheepdog CAN make a difference, but the price he will pay to do it is much, much, higher than an armed one will have to pay.

This kid's story should be taught in every school and his name should be known by all.

 

[Caleb]

what's the old saying, "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"?

 

[ryanmercer]

more like a que ball sized Gobstopper in a sock. And/Or a #2 pencil.

No no no... you have to sue a sock full of quarters like Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies.