Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

[jamil]

How is a Santa Rosa CA resident a "witness" to anything in Minneapolis, MN?

The Defense's medical expert witness is from Massachusetts. They didn't say it was a material witness.

 

[KG1]

People are just unhinged. WTF?

We are witnessing the end of a civil society. A total reversal of social evolution into barbarism.

 

[jamil]

Two things. First, your math doesn’t help your point, all things considered. Second you noted “shot and KILLED.” At first glance one would think that’s relevant, but there’s no mention of simply “shot,” or the rate at which deadly force is employed, and the target of that force survives. I don’t know the figures, but that stat would seem more relevant or simply “shot and killed.”

So are you alleging that police have worse aim when shooting black people than other races? It's safe to assume that the deaths caused by shooting would be proportional to the count of people were shot by police. So using this statistic is useful for the point he was making. He was making the point that many people of other races are killed by police and when that happens those races don't tend to riot. I mean. You gotta "cheat" their candidate out of office or make them wear masks to get them to riot.

In fact, it is rare that police shooting a white suspect (whether or not the suspect lives or dies from it) ever makes national news. Why is that? It's because it's not of national interest. Neither should the other be national interest. There is nothing that should be considered more significant about people getting shot by police when they happen to be black. I've posted a statistic several times on INGO of deaths caused by police per 100k encounters. Between Blacks and non-Blacks it's almost identical. Whites are something like 0.4 per 100k encounters and Blacks are slightly less at 0.3 per 100K encounters.

The importance of that, it makes clear what the real problem is. The problem to solve is the number of encounters people have with police. The more you encounter police, especially an encounter which turns confrontational, the more likely police are to advance in the use of force. Of course you know that.

 

[jamil]

We are witnessing the end of a civil society. A total reversal of social evolution into barbarism.

Social evolution is the accumulated generational knowledge of good and bad human behaviors and how to override those bad ones. Liberal thinking (I'm talking classical liberal here) taught us to question everything. And that's a good thing because we identify the human behaviors that are good and bad for society. I blame the issues today on postmodern thinking, which teaches people to problematize whatever the dominant culture is doing, because the dominant culture is always oppressive. Because it's dominant, it must have been oppressive to have achieved dominance. Of course that's nonsense.

So instead of overriding behaviors that tend to harm a society, all of Western culture is evil and therefore all its principles must be problematized and overridden in favor of all the non-dominant cultures. All of the bad behaviors that society has overcome must now be made the good way.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yet it doesn't seem relevant when we're talking about Chicago or New Orleans and people who don't fit the narrative shooting each other. It's almost as if there is a desire to minimize that problem

Personally, I think a more relevant statistic would be to not break it down into 'shot' and 'shot and killed', but to break it down into 'resisting arrest' and 'not resisting arrest'. What would you want to bet those would be lop-sided statistics?

Maybe, but those figures don’t exist, comprehensively. And I’ve not yet see where anecdotal evidence has ever been considered scholarly.

 

[foszoe]

Don't have kids but wouldn't you want them at home if a riot broke out?

 

[foszoe]

Social evolution is the accumulated generational knowledge of good and bad human behaviors and how to override those bad ones. Liberal thinking (I'm talking classical liberal here) taught us to question everything. And that's a good thing because we identify the human behaviors that are good and bad for society. I blame the issues today on postmodern thinking, which teaches people to problematize whatever the dominant culture is doing, because the dominant culture is always oppressive. Because it's dominant, it must have been oppressive to have achieved dominance. Of course that's nonsense.

So instead of overriding behaviors that tend to harm a society, all of Western culture is evil and therefore all its principles must be problematized and overridden in favor of all the non-dominant cultures. All of the bad behaviors that society has overcome must now be made the good way.

I am a classical liberal?!?

I am classically married.

I am a classical male.

I may just be a classic.

That sounds better than a relic. Unless it's in a religious thread.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So are you alleging that police have worse aim when shooting black people than other races? It's safe to assume that the deaths caused by shooting would be proportional to the count of people were shot by police. So using this statistic is useful for the point he was making. He was making the point that many people of other races are killed by police and when that happens those races don't tend to riot. I mean. You gotta "cheat" their candidate out of office or make them wear masks to get them to riot.

In fact, it is rare that police shooting a white suspect (whether or not the suspect lives or dies from it) ever makes national news. Why is that? It's because it's not of national interest. Neither should the other be national interest. There is nothing that should be considered more significant about people getting shot by police when they happen to be black. I've posted a statistic several times on INGO of deaths caused by police per 100k encounters. Between Blacks and non-Blacks it's almost identical. Whites are something like 0.4 per 100k encounters and Blacks are slightly less at 0.3 per 100K encounters.

The importance of that, it makes clear what the real problem is. The problem to solve is the number of encounters people have with police. The more you encounter police, especially an encounter which turns confrontational, the more likely police are to advance in the use of force. Of course you know that.

Yeah no, I’m not alleging that. I saying that there perhaps police employ force unequally. I said perhaps because, those figures aren’t collected; at least not that I’ve seen. And I’m not even saying those uses of force are unjustified. In the vast majority of instances I’m sure they are completely justified, by the book. You won’t find a police officer that hasn’t had instances where they could have, justifiably, used more for than they employed during a specific instance. My question, is what that breakdown is. When you see people threatening to kill officers then driving off, a guy who fights with them-disarms one-drives of in their squad, or shoot the gun out of the hand of a guy pointing it, you can’t help but wonder, how those situations would go for other folks.

 

[jamil]

Yet it doesn't seem relevant when we're talking about Chicago or New Orleans and people who don't fit the narrative shooting each other. It's almost as if there is a desire to minimize that problem

Personally, I think a more relevant statistic would be to not break it down into 'shot' and 'shot and killed', but to break it down into 'resisting arrest' and 'not resisting arrest'. What would you want to bet those would be lop-sided statistics?

I think that would be a useful statistic. Count how many encounters with police are resisted, and then what the escalation of force was. Black people are pulled over way more than their demographics should suggest. Yet their deaths are slightly less per capita than non-Blacks. Use of fource must obviously be escalated slightly more often with non-Blacks than with Blacks to achieve that statistic.

But as I recall that was a national statistic. I think there would be regional statistics that are hidden in the shadows of the national numbers. In densely populated urban high-poverty areas, I suspect that the number of people resisting arrest would be much higher than in urban centers which don't have the big gettos. It seems obvious to me that resisting arrest necessitates a level of force that makes death way more more likely than if the person just accepts reality and complies.

 

[foszoe]

Maybe, but those figures don’t exist, comprehensively. And I’ve not yet see where anecdotal evidence has ever been considered scholarly.

Because gun violence is not allowed to be studied....yet

 

[KG1]

Social evolution is the accumulated generational knowledge of good and bad human behaviors and how to override those bad ones. Liberal thinking (I'm talking classical liberal here) taught us to question everything. And that's a good thing because we identify the human behaviors that are good and bad for society. I blame the issues today on postmodern thinking, which teaches people to problematize whatever the dominant culture is doing, because the dominant culture is always oppressive. Because it's dominant, it must have been oppressive to have achieved dominance. Of course that's nonsense.

So instead of overriding behaviors that tend to harm a society, all of Western culture is evil and therefore all its principles must be problematized and overridden in favor of all the non-dominant cultures. All of the bad behaviors that society has overcome must now be made the good way.

We must tear down society to it's most primitive level in order to rebuild it.

 

[foszoe]

Will she be impeached for insurrection?

No

 

[foszoe]

Exactly. Back when, riots were spontaneous and unpredictable. Now, you can set your watch by them.

Does this mean we need to include this discussion in the DST thread?

What if Arizona rioters start late or early?

 

[jamil]

Yeah no, I’m not alleging that. I saying that there perhaps police employ force unequally. I said perhaps because, those figures aren’t collected; at least not that I’ve seen. And I’m not even saying those uses of force are unjustified. In the vast majority of instances I’m sure they are completely justified, by the book. You won’t find a police officer that hasn’t had instances where they could have, justifiably, used more for than they employed during a specific instance. My question, is what that breakdown is. When you see people threatening to kill officers then driving off, a guy who fights with them-disarms one-drives of in their squad, or shoot the gun out of the hand of a guy pointing it, you can’t help but wonder, how those situations would go for other folks.

It would be great if they kept statistics on encounters which were resisted, and what the outcomes of those were. But, it is reflected in the statistics even when we don't know the exact numbers. The deaths per 100K police encounters kinda tell us at least whether it's proportional. It doesn't tell us what kind of force was used that resulted in the deaths or whether it was justified or not. It does tell us something about how evenly people die because of police enounters, because that is broken down by race.

I posted an article on INGO that broke that down maybe a couple of years ago. I have no idea where that post is. I think I got it from serendipity. I came across it while looking for something else. And I can't find it again. I just remember a statistic 0.3% of police encounters with Black people (all encounters with police that would be recorded, including traffic stops) ended up with the person killed by police. It was 0.4% for whites, or at least non-Blacks, I don't remember which. I suspect it was for whites. I think I recall it being even less for Hispanics?

 

[jamil]

Does this mean we need to include this discussion in the DST thread?

What if Arizona rioters start late or early?

When setting your watch by local reactions to social issues, you always have to assume local time.

Of course if we all went by UTC, then it's much easier.

 

[BugI02]

We must tear down society to it's most primitive level in order to rebuild it.

'We had to destroy the village in order to save it'

 

[Pepi]

My Dad always told me. "Mess around lay around"

 

[KLB]

If he’s guilty then convict him. If not, don’t complain that justice wasn’t served. It’s the best system we have.

There is no clear cut crime. Guilt is an opinion here, and opinions differ.

 

[jsharmon7]

There is no clear cut crime. Guilt is an opinion here, and opinions differ.

But that’s the idea of a jury. 12 people decide. It doesn’t matter whether I or anyone else outside those 12 agree. That’s what we call justice in this country and we can’t riot because our side didn’t win.

 

[KellyinAvon]

When setting your watch by local reactions to social issues, you always have to assume local time.

Of course if we all went by UTC, then it's much easier.

Zulu time for the win!!