Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man part II

Kutnupe14

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So yeah. That’s not good for the defense.
 

DoggyDaddy

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State argues Floyd had low level of drugs in body compared even to others who lived​

After much toxicological jargon, we’ve arrived at the point.
The state is arguing, with the help of their witness Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a forensic toxicologist, that even though evidence showed George Floyd was found to have fentanyl and meth in his body at the time of his death, it wasn’t in high amounts, compared to cases even where others stayed alive afterward.
Mr Floyd’s level of meth in his body was in the bottom 5.9 percent of people in DUI cases, Mr Isenschmid explained, and had a ratio of fentanyl in his body well below the ratio normally found in both post-mortem and DUI cases involving the drug.
A major part of the defence’s case is that Mr Floyd died from a drug overdose, rather than from the knee pressed into his neck.
Interesting. And completely different from every other report I've seen.
 

T.Lex

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Apparently the Fentanyl was 11 nanograms/milliliter (or .011 micrograms/ml).

According to this Medscape link:

Dosing for Fentanyl starts at .5 micrograms/ml and goes up from there. That is, .011 micrograms/ml is less than what can be prescribed at a hospital, apparently.
 

Tombs

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Apparently the Fentanyl was 11 nanograms/milliliter (or .011 micrograms/ml).

According to this Medscape link:

Dosing for Fentanyl starts at .5 micrograms/ml and goes up from there. That is, .011 micrograms/ml is less than what can be prescribed at a hospital, apparently.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but wasn't that the content in his blood rather than the dose he had taken?
 

craigkim

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Apparently the Fentanyl was 11 nanograms/milliliter (or .011 micrograms/ml).

According to this Medscape link:

Dosing for Fentanyl starts at .5 micrograms/ml and goes up from there. That is, .011 micrograms/ml is less than what can be prescribed at a hospital, apparently.
Two different things here. You are comparing the concentration of the drug in its injectable form of .5mg/ml to what his blood concentration was 11ng/ml. Similar to saying that your beer is 5% ABV and you only had a blood volume of .1%. As far as I can find the 11ng/ml blood levels should be significant.
 

T.Lex

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but wasn't that the content in his blood rather than the dose he had taken?
So, as you know, I'm not an anesthesiologist. :) And, frankly, Hough probably has had some as clients, so he may have more insight.

Perhaps more importantly, the prosecution needs to make the case.

There is also this page in Medscape that describes the pharmacology:
Concentration: 0.2-2 ng/mL (adverse effects occur at >2 ng/mL)
 

DoggyDaddy

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So, as you know, I'm not an anesthesiologist. :) And, frankly, Hough probably has had some as clients, so he may have more insight.

Perhaps more importantly, the prosecution needs to make the case.

There is also this page in Medscape that describes the pharmacology:

This is the important part: "Concentration: 0.2-2 ng/mL (adverse effects occur at >2 ng/mL)"

So if his blood concentration was 11 ng/mL, it was over 5 times the level that causes adverse effects. Hopefully that distinction will be brought up and explained to the jurors, because dosage and blood level concentration are two totally separate things. Then add in the effects of methamphetamine, and you've got a pretty deadly cocktail.
 

T.Lex

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Then add in the effects of methamphetamine, and you've got a pretty deadly cocktail.
Or not. :)

And this is one of the issues that can cut both ways. Ok, maybe he lapsed into an overdose situation during the 9 minutes... if that's true, he certainly wasn't resisting anymore.
 

DoggyDaddy

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Or not. :)

And this is one of the issues that can cut both ways. Ok, maybe he lapsed into an overdose situation during the 9 minutes... if that's true, he certainly wasn't resisting anymore.
Well, his complaining about not being able to breathe started well before he was put on the ground, so obviously something else was causing that. A rational explanation would be the level of drugs in his system, combined with partially blocked arteries in his heart would be just as likely, if not moreso, to cause his distress. At any rate, it should be enough to create "reasonable doubt" that Chauvin's actions caused his demise. Especially since it has come to light that Chauvin's knee appeared to be on his shoulder rather than his neck.
 

T.Lex

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Well, his complaining about not being able to breathe started well before he was put on the ground, so obviously something else was causing that. A rational explanation would be the level of drugs in his system, combined with partially blocked arteries in his heart would be just as likely, if not moreso, to cause his distress. At any rate, it should be enough to create "reasonable doubt" that Chauvin's actions caused his demise. Especially since it has come to light that Chauvin's knee appeared to be on his shoulder rather than his neck.
This isn't really me arguing, but illustrating that juries are fickle. What you describe is entirely plausible.

But a juror might also hear that and conclude that, even though Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe (putting Chauvin on notice), then Chauvin puts him in a position that makes it harder for him to breathe.

One of the things the jury is asked to determine is whether Chauvin's actions were dangerous and without regard to human life. That might fit.
 

nonobaddog

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So they found some witness they could pay to say the dose was low? That is so ridiculous. His blood had 11 ng/mL in it. That is very high. People have died of fentanyl overdose with levels of 3 ng/mL.
He not only had fentanyl at 11 ng/mL but also norfentanyl at 5.6 ng/mL along with methamphetamine and morphine. Holy crap, he didn't have enough time left to commit more crimes even if he was in a hurry.
 

DoggyDaddy

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This isn't really me arguing, but illustrating that juries are fickle. What you describe is entirely plausible.

But a juror might also hear that and conclude that, even though Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe (putting Chauvin on notice), then Chauvin puts him in a position that makes it harder for him to breathe.

One of the things the jury is asked to determine is whether Chauvin's actions were dangerous and without regard to human life. That might fit.
Understood, and that's why I think that at most, he could be found guilty of some kind of negligence in rendering or calling for aid from EMTs. I don't think it rises to the level of murder or really even manslaughter, just based on what has been presented so far. Just my non-professional opinion of course.
 

Tombs

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KLB

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This isn't really me arguing, but illustrating that juries are fickle. What you describe is entirely plausible.

But a juror might also hear that and conclude that, even though Floyd was complaining about not being able to breathe (putting Chauvin on notice), then Chauvin puts him in a position that makes it harder for him to breathe.

One of the things the jury is asked to determine is whether Chauvin's actions were dangerous and without regard to human life. That might fit.
That was covered in yesterday's testimony. The link posted up thread to Branca's recap is a good place to start. Here is it on LegalInsurrection
 

Kutnupe14

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So they found some witness they could pay to say the dose was low? That is so ridiculous. His blood had 11 ng/mL in it. That is very high. People have died of fentanyl overdose with levels of 3 ng/mL.
He not only had fentanyl at 11 ng/mL but also norfentanyl at 5.6 ng/mL along with methamphetamine and morphine. Holy crap, he didn't have enough time left to commit more crimes even if he was in a hurry.
The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
Remember, a lot of you guys said Floyd “was going to die anyways,” but that now doesn’t seem to be the case.
And further the doctor today said that a healthy person subject to what Floyd was, would have also died.
One thing I learned today, was that at tone Chauvin didn’t have his foot on the ground when his knee was on the neck. I had thought it was. I looked and sure enough it wasn’t. Chauvin was putting a good amount of weight on Floyd’s neck.
 

nonobaddog

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The doctor said that of 2000 people arrested for DUI (Fent) the average intoxication level was 9.5+ ng/mL, and that there were dozens from that group who tested higher than Floyd. Floyd was a doper right? Why isn’t it plausible that he had an tolerance at least equal to those persons that survived?
I didn't watch that so I don't know what he said.
Fatal doses of fentanyl are all too common so there is real data available.
Fentanyl is so strong that if the users treat it like heroin or some other opioids they are used to, it is easy to take a dose that is ten times a lethal dose.

This article found the levels in overdose deaths to range from 0.75 ng/mL to 113 ng/mL with a median of 9.96 ng/mL. The real high ones are misleading because that is enough to kill them many times over.
https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

This study in the Journal of Medical Toxicology included 96 overdose deaths and found the levels of fentanyl to range from 2 ng/mL to 51 ng/mL. Again the high ones are misleading because they took an excess of drug over the amount that actually killed them.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23359211/

I'm not saying the paid witness is lying, but since he already has, it is likely he is.
I can find more studies on toxicology of fentanyl that show Floyd's levels and frequently significantly lower levels were fatal in many other drug users that were also frequent drug users and also had increased tolerance like Floyd - but then so can you.
 

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