Enlightening FBI Gun statistics from our good friends at JPFO

[Ingomike]

Government has the legal authority, AND obligation I would add, to enact measures that preserve the security of the state. This libertarian view of "freedom" is flawed from it`s start. Freedom doesn`t mean any of us can do ANYTHING, and dare someone to stop us. Freedom comes with the responsibility to be a good citizen and contribute to the productivity and security of the state. You already KNOW this.

That sounds Marxist when I read it.

 

[CampingJosh]

Same argument the left uses as to why we all ought to be fine with unwed mothers, sexual perversion, teen moms, etc., but ultimately, ALL these things DO interfere with our freedoms because they`re a threat to the cohesion, the safety and security of the nation.

You can use this same "butterfly effect" logic to get to complete authoritarian control.

Plenty of people believe that an individual right to self-defense makes our country less safe, secure, and cohesive. We maintain individual freedom in the face of that. Why not on what people choose to put into their own bodies?

Freedom comes with the responsibility to be a good citizen and contribute to the productivity and security of the state. You already KNOW this.

The state exists for the people, not the people for the state.

 

[gregr]

That sounds Marxist when I read it.

Now law and order is "Marxist"?

 

[Ingomike]

Now law and order is "Marxist"?

"Freedom comes with the responsibility to be a good citizen and contribute to the productivity and security of the state."


No it doesn't. That, if required, is not freedom. Freedom was enjoyed by all even though only about 10% of citizens actually fought in the Revolutionary war, a third supporting it, a third indifferent, and a third opposed.

The usurpation of individual rights is Marxist...

 

[gregr]

"Freedom comes with the responsibility to be a good citizen and contribute to the productivity and security of the state."


No it doesn't. That, if required, is not freedom. Freedom was enjoyed by all even though only about 10% of citizens actually fought in the Revolutionary war, a third supporting it, a third indifferent, and a third opposed.

The usurpation of individual rights is Marxist...

One must have an intellectual and realistic understanding of what exactly individual rights are and encompass...individual rights do NOT mean anything goes. Law and order that must be in place.

 

[Ingomike]

One must have an intellectual and realistic understanding of what exactly individual rights are and encompass...individual rights do NOT mean anything goes. Law and order that must be in place.

Or just be confused by TPTB to manipulate you into accepting their bit. Public intoxication is a good example of law and order, that afects others. Telling someone what they can ingest from supplements to food to what you call drugs is not law and order, it is controlling. As is telling the people what they may possess or trade, whether an SBR or cocaine.

 

[DadSmith]

Or just be confused by TPTB to manipulate you into accepting their bit. Public intoxication is a good example of law and order, that afects others. Telling someone what they can ingest from sopplements to food to what you call drugs is not law and order, it is controlling. As is telling the people what they may possess or trade, whether an SBR or cocaine.

Coca Cola use to have cocaine as an ingredient until the government said it was illegal. No one got high off of it but it was still considered illegal.

What Happened To The Cocaine In Coca-Cola?

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'll have to disagree with Dadsmith's take on severely limiting the comforts of prison. That is just punishment with no benefit. We need rehabilitation too. I agree they live a pretty soft life, but we have to do something to help them not re-offend. I guess if you've got somebody facing the death penalty or no chance of parole ever, I guess that would be ok. That is if you just want to break them and not worry about them because they will never possibly ever see freedom again. But what about those that are likely to come back to our world?

They can already easily get their GED in there. And that is awesome since the reason many of them are criminals is because they have no real skills nor education. Get them educated and something they can do, and they are less likely to be back. And ESPECIALLY teach them the life skills that they were not taught due to POS parents. Another great idea that is NEEDED.

Some prisons are now also providing free associates degrees and trades training for those motivated to get out of the cycle. Yeah, them getting a free education sucks when you or I have to pay out of pocket. But look at the alternative?

Its kinda like those that complain about contributing to the schools when they have no children to benefit. What's cheaper; paying a little now to educate those kids (and convicts), nor NOT educating them and suffering the higher crime rates because they dont have the skills they need and become a drain on society?

 

[DadSmith]

I'll have to disagree with Dadsmith's take on severely limiting the comforts of prison. That is just punishment with no benefit. We need rehabilitation too. I agree they live a pretty soft life, but we have to do something to help them not re-offend. I guess if you've got somebody facing the death penalty or no chance of parole ever, I guess that would be ok. That is if you just want to break them and not worry about them because they will never possibly ever see freedom again. But what about those that are likely to come back to our world?

They can already easily get their GED in there. And that is awesome since the reason many of them are criminals is because they have no real skills nor education. Get them educated and something they can do, and they are less likely to be back. And ESPECIALLY teach them the life skills that they were not taught due to POS parents. Another great idea that is NEEDED.

Some prisons are now also providing free associates degrees and trades training for those motivated to get out of the cycle. Yeah, them getting a free education sucks when you or I have to pay out of pocket. But look at the alternative?

Its kinda like those that complain about contributing to the schools when they have no children to benefit. What's cheaper; paying a little now to educate those kids (and convicts), nor NOT educating them and suffering the higher crime rates because they dont have the skills they need and become a drain on society?

They need to be put to work doing something that they can use when they get out. Learn on the job experience while in prison. If they want education those that actually do they should set up a school system inside and those who are willing to learn can go to that school after they put in 8 hours minimum of labor doing something. This would be for non violent offenders. Violent felons should never be released into society again.

 

[Bighoss91]

Government has the legal authority, AND obligation I would add, to enact measures that preserve the security of the state.

Talking about the same argument the left uses. This is the scariest thing I might have ever seen posted to this (a gun owners) forum. This is word for word how they plan to take rights away starting with the ones protected by the 2nd amendment. "Give up your ar14 and aks for the security of the state."

The war on drugs has failed I don't know if legalizing stuff is the right answer but clearly the current path is far from it. 1st offense mandatory rehab and decriminalization seems a better way. Then if a habitual offender stricter sentencing maybe. But any route is at least a better way than current insanity.

 

[gregr]

Talking about the same argument the left uses. This is the scariest thing I might have ever seen posted to this (a gun owners) forum. This is word for word how they plan to take rights away starting with the ones protected by the 2nd amendment. "Give up your ar14 and aks for the security of the state."

The Second Amendment is a constitutional right. Being a walking-dead, zombie addict is not only not a constitutional right, but it`s a direct threat to a safe, productive, and free state. You seem to be confused.

 

[Ingomike]

The Second Amendment is a constitutional right. Being a walking-dead, zombie addict is not only not a constitutional right, but it`s a direct threat to a safe, productive, and free state. You seem to be confused.

I get where you are coming from but this is just utopian dream that we can legislate those with dependency issues, and those that serve them for unfathomable profits away. It is just not possible to do this without infringing on others rights.

Being an addict is a form of "pursuit of happiness" as much as anything anyone wants to do. Where would this logically stop? We know excessive Advil use is very bad. Should we make AC equipment illegal? Some like to huff the refrigerants to get high? Just where will we draw the line? That line drawing has already crossed so many freedoms off the list?

 

[DadSmith]

In the early 1800s more than 200 types of crimes would lead to execution, ranging from murder to shoplifting. Now how far have we ran from punishment that works to club med prisons.

The farther left politically our country moves the less we punish criminals.

 

[Bighoss91]

The Second Amendment is a constitutional right. Being a walking-dead, zombie addict is not only not a constitutional right, but it`s a direct threat to a safe, productive, and free state. You seem to be confused.

I would have to say you are the confused one. No were in it does the constitution grant anyone rights, it doesn't have to, rights come with being alive. Be it god given or intrinsic to humanity what ever your beliefs. Your rights are a forgone conclusion that you live and breathe as anyone else. The constitution is merely a warning to stop a over bearing government from attempting to take what can't be taken by force but can only be relinquished by those of weak will and conviction.

I'm not advocating for total legalization or extreme punishment but for a rational middle ground because we have stepped far and away from that. I truly believe there has to be a way forward without stepping on the rights of other while protecting the rights of all. Leniency and help at first then in the end a firmer hand may be required to for those that violate the rights of others in the quest for there fix.

 

[DadSmith]

I would have to say you are the confused one. No were in it does the constitution grant anyone rights, it doesn't have to, rights come with being alive. Be it god given or intrinsic to humanity what ever your beliefs. Your rights are a forgone conclusion that you live and breathe as anyone else. The constitution is merely a warning to stop a over bearing government from attempting to take what can't be taken by force but can only be relinquished by those of weak will and conviction.

I'm not advocating for total legalization or extreme punishment but for a rational middle ground because we have stepped far and away from that. I truly believe there has to be a way forward without stepping on the rights of other while protecting the rights of all. Leniency and help at first then in the end a firmer hand may be required to for those that violate the rights of others in the quest for there fix.

Depending on the crime none violent yes I agree, but violent felon they can depart the land of the living. May others learn from their punishment or receive the same.

 

[gregr]

I would have to say you are the confused one. No were in it does the constitution grant anyone rights, it doesn't have to, rights come with being alive. Be it god given or intrinsic to humanity what ever your beliefs. Your rights are a forgone conclusion that you live and breathe as anyone else. The constitution is merely a warning to stop a over bearing government from attempting to take what can't be taken by force but can only be relinquished by those of weak will and conviction.

I'm not advocating for total legalization or extreme punishment but for a rational middle ground because we have stepped far and away from that. I truly believe there has to be a way forward without stepping on the rights of other while protecting the rights of all. Leniency and help at first then in the end a firmer hand may be required to for those that violate the rights of others in the quest for there fix.

You`re correct in that, the Constitution doesn`t grant rights, it merely acknowledged and enumerates the rights the Founders called Natural Rights. Rights bestowed upon us by Almighty God. But not anything you wish to do is a "right". Our rights, summed up are, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It`s LONG been established that governments have the right, AND the obligation to protect their people, as well as create and maintain law, and an order to that culture and society. This is derived from both the Founding Documents, as well as God in His Word, the Holy Bible. Living in a constitutional republic requires that everyone conform to certain basic standards and standards of conduct whether you like it or not. Those who choose not to, are rightfully defined as criminals.

 

[Bighoss91]

Depending on the crime none violent yes I agree, but violent felon they can depart the land of the living. May others learn from their punishment or receive the same.

My thoughts to. I was referring to petty possession and users of elicit drugs. If someone wants to profit from those things every lethal dose sold should be treated as if they were the trigger man in a shooting. As to violent felons I truly believe that anyone who would use, what's protected by the 2nd amendment and granted to us by our creator, in a malicious way against another person has forfeit their rights. We as a society don't have any gun problems, but the thugs and gangster that view it as a power to make them gods over there domain have no place in a upstanding society. They have no morals or beliefs that make them redeemable, they crave one thing power at all costs which goes against everything the Bill of Rights and constitution stand for. All of mankind was created equal when someone tries to usurp power or dictate upon the freewill of others. They lower them selves from the equal playing field to the level of an animal.

 

[Bighoss91]

You`re correct in that, the Constitution doesn`t grant rights, it merely acknowledged and enumerates the rights the Founders called Natural Rights. Rights bestowed upon us by Almighty God. But not anything you wish to do is a "right". Our rights, summed up are, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It`s LONG been established that governments have the right, AND the obligation to protect their people, as well as create and maintain law, and an order to that culture and society. This is derived from both the Founding Documents, as well as God in His Word, the Holy Bible. Living in a constitutional republic requires that everyone conform to certain basic standards and standards of conduct whether you like it or not. Those who choose not to, are rightfully defined as criminals.

I don't disagree entirely but simply say those obligations of government are blurry in the fact that the pursuit of happiness can be defined in many different ways. The government is to protect society by stopping people from infringing on someone else rights with there own but not to control how you use yours as long as it doesn't interfere with anothers.

 

[gregr]

I don't disagree entirely but simply say those obligations of government are blurry in the fact that the pursuit of happiness can be defined in many different ways. The government is to protect society by stopping people from infringing on someone else rights with there own but not to control how you use yours as long as it doesn't interfere with anothers.

And there is simply NO "right" to be an addict. No right to be a burden upon society and social services. It was expected that people have character, integrity, and act ethically. We`ve lost that in the culture today, and the more lawless and deviate the populous are, the more laws are required in order to KEEP order.


"Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams

 

[BugI02]

Or end the failed Prohibition 2.0 that hasn't been working for these last 50+ years. It is the cause of a huge proportion of the violence in our country, is the leading factor in "the land of the free" having the highest incarceration rate in the world, is crazy expensive, and there's little evidence that it actually makes us any more secure.

I'm not in favor of drug use, but at some point we have to admit that the war on drugs has been more destructive than the problem it was intended to solve.

So has the war on poverty. Let's fix that one first. Perhaps ending the destruction of the nuclear family will have a less deleterious effect than surrender to hedonism