Discussion Spark......

[redneckmedic]

I just read this excerpt and found it interesting. There are some valid points here..... and yet some I disagree with also. This was part of a discussion started by a young man in H.S. bragging to his peers about not standing during the pledge, and several responses from those who applauded and shamed his act.


BTW INGO this is not a religious thread, its a Pledge of Allegiance thread only. Thank You.

I strongly oppose the pledge of allegiance.

[strike]Even if the "under God" were omitted[/strike], the adoration of any emblem or symbol is itself an inherently religious ritual. It is oppressive to apply peer pressure to an audience full of people to have them simultaneously recite a loyalty oath to the state. "One nation indivisible" is a bold lie about a society where 5 percent of the people own 95 percent of the wealth, and the two classes have diametrically opposite interests. For a regime with 500,000 people currently in prison for smoking marijuana to say "liberty and justice for all", the hypocrisy is colossal. A legal system where one's chances of getting elected to office or winning in court depend, more than any other factor, on being on the side of Wall Street corporations, is not a "republic." There is nothing in the pledge that I agree with. I disagree with each and every assertion that it contains.

And the cartoon after some edited it.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I don't think that person and I can agree on definitions concerning everyday life what is fair, and in some cases legal, so I think that any conversation between the two of us would fail right off the bat.

I do agree that he has the right not to stand. He would not have my respect. If he can live without my respect and he doesn't interrupt my attempt at standing and reciting the Pledge, we'd be cool. Just not friends.

 

[rockhopper46038]

This^^^

I'm certain the kid cares not a whit that I don't respect him. And that's ok with me.

 

[Fletch]

I disagree with the anti-pledger's assertions, but I am not a fan of the pledge itself.

 

[Hoosier9]

Even if the "under God" were omitted, the adoration of any emblem or symbol is itself an inherently religious ritual. It is oppressive to apply peer pressure to an audience full of people to have them simultaneously recite a loyalty oath to the state. "One nation indivisible" is a bold lie about a society where 5 percent of the people own 95 percent of the wealth, and the two classes have diametrically opposite interests. For a regime with 500,000 people currently in prison for smoking marijuana to say "liberty and justice for all", the hypocrisy is colossal. A legal system where one's chances of getting elected to office or winning in court depend, more than any other factor, on being on the side of Wall Street corporations, is not a "republic." There is nothing in the pledge that I agree with. I disagree with each and every assertion that it contains.


How brutally ignorant.

Everyone has the right not to stand for the pledge, but to base the reasoning on this lunacy is ridiculous.

In a nation where $30,000 a year is the "poverty" line, I'd say that pretty much everyone is wealthy.

There are more than 2 "classes" of people in this nation, unless you are referring to the class of people who think, vs. the class who simply regurgitates propaganda BS as fact without thinking for themselves.

I seriously doubt that there are 500,000 people in prison for "simply smoking" marijuana. Possession of a personal use quantity of marijuana is a misdemeanor just about everywhere, and you don't go to prison for a first, or even a second offense. Besides....even if there ARE 500,000 people in jail for "simply smoking", did someone not get the memo that it is illegal? You pay your money, and you take your chances.

Whether I win in court depends on corporate sponsorship? Somebody better tell these mulit-million dollar corporations that lose lawsuits that they really won.

 

[phylodog]

Perhaps he would rather pledge allegiance to a socialist country where ignorant speech results in a jail sentence. At least everyone would be equally destitute.

 

[dross]

I disagree with the anti-pledger's assertions, but I am not a fan of the pledge itself.

I struggle with the pledge myself. I don't like the idea of pledging to a flag, I really don't like the idea of pledging at all. It doesn't come up much, and I do it in the spirit that I think most people take it in, but the idea of it rubs me the wrong way a little.

 

[Fletch]

I struggle with the pledge myself. I don't like the idea of pledging to a flag, I really don't like the idea of pledging at all. It doesn't come up much, and I do it in the spirit that I think most people take it in, but the idea of it rubs me the wrong way a little.

I don't see the value of an oath sworn by people who are just reciting it by rote. I understand there are some for whom the meaning is profound, and within my worldview it seems even more insulting to them to say a pledge you don't mean, reciting words that were simply drilled into your head since 1st grade, and which you've never given any thought to.

There are things that I hold dear and sacred, and when folks claim to hold those same things dear and sacred but clearly don't, I find that insulting and degrading. In the same way, it seems to me that someone who holds the flag dear and sacred has that value diminished by those who literally give it lip service.

I'll stand for the pledge out of respect, but I don't say the pledge also out of respect. It doesn't mean enough to me that my saying it doesn't cheapen it.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

It's a free county.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

This kid reminds me a little of me when I was young-- I can relate a little even though I am a fat, gray, old fart now and age has tempered my views and hopefully it's a pinch of wisdom that has cleared up my perspective a little. While this kid is a little over the top and probably needs some anti-corporate socialist propagandad eprogramming, I've never been a big fan of the pledge myself.

One of the first things that struck me when I joined this forum was Bill of Rights' sig line. In it, he has an alternate pledge of allegiance he wrote -- I hope he won't mind my quoting it here:

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the united States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; One nation of Sovereign States, under God, with liberty and justice for all."

I actually like his much better than the official one. My reasons are different than the kid's: I think some people lose their way and honor the symbol of our country more than what it stands for. I have often said, "I pledge allegiance to hmphmh the United States of America..." I was never real big on the "indivisible" part either. I like Bill of Rights' changes.

 

[mrjarrell]

Like Fletch said, I disagree with the posters assertions, but I also will not pledge allegiance to the government. The pledge was created by a socialist to promote a socialist/statist agenda. They originally used the Roman style salute to the flag, until the Nazi's adopted it from us and it fell out of favour. I might stand, but it doesn't pass my lips.

 

[dross]

This kid reminds me a little of me when I was young-- I can relate a little even though I am a fat, gray, old fart now and age has tempered my views and hopefully it's a pinch of wisdom that has cleared up my perspective a little. While this kid is a little over the top and probably needs some anti-corporate socialist propagandad eprogramming, I've never been a big fan of the pledge myself.

One of the first things that struck me when I joined this forum was Bill of Rights' sig line. In it, he has an alternate pledge of allegiance he wrote -- I hope he won't mind my quoting it here:

I actually like his much better than the official one. My reasons are different than the kid's: I think some people lose their way and honor the symbol of our country more than what it stands for. I have often said, "I pledge allegiance to hmphmh the United States of America..." I was never real big on the "indivisible" part either. I like Bill of Rights' changes.

I believe I could pledge allegience to the Constitution with gusto.

 

[M1 carbine dad]

The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance

You know, I never knew that a socialist created the Pledge! WTF???

Thanks for this discussion, it is a great one and it makes me think about my motives when I recite the Pledge.

I like the amended Pledge that Bill of Rights has as well. I could get behind that now that I'm older and understand more about why our current pledge reads as it does.

 

[Bull]

I like and say the Pledge and I like the the way Red explains it.
YouTube - Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance

 

[ViperJock]

The problem with the attitude expressed in the quote is not necessarily the fact that someone has exercised their freedom of speech, but that some who wish to utilize their freedom of speech in a way such that it supports the constitution or their religion (specifically, the unfashionable Christians), they are shouted down and censored by those who laud the first ammendment when it allows them to say whatever they want. Google what happens if you burn a US flag in the US (you can still be elected president) Then google what happens to you if you burn a mexican flag.

 

[M1 carbine dad]

Bull, man I had forgotten all about that clip! Red Skelton was amazing!

Got to meet him in 1977 at Ball State. He played the campus theatre and did that bit at the end. Amazing!

Then he went to the honors dorm after the show to talk with the students. My brother was living there at the time. What a classy guy!

I love how he puts it.