Democrats want to Legalize Marijuana

[Liberty Sanders]

I support the legalization of drugs and prostitution.

 

[BugI02]

We spend 10s of billions of dollars every year "fighting" the drug war. Police pull people over on highways all over the country on pretexts just to be able to search their cars for drugs. Our bank accounts are watched for transactions that might be "suspicious", and people have cash taken from them regularly with no proof of wrong doing, simply because everyone knows only a criminal would have any use for cash.

Where is your "proof" that drugs equals crime? Did drugs equal crime before we outlawed them? Do drugs equal crime in the countries where they are legal? Blaming drugs for the actions of individuals is wrong. If a person commits a crime punish them for that crime. Don't punish them for putting a substance in their bodies that you think is going to make them commit some other crime.

A quick search just now found some old DoJ numbers from a report released in 1987. It stated the estimated 500,000 addicts committed an estimated 50,000,000 crimes per year at a cost to the economy of $46.9 billion

That is 100 crimes per addict per year, on average at roughly $970 per crime, and without a doubt those numbers have grown considerably in the interim

A separate report estimates that the annual cost of all aspects of the war on drugs is approximately $50 billion, so that cost is about a wash with the cost of drug based criminality from 1987 and probably less than the cost of such criminality today - and after legalizing weed, you still have to interdict all the other illegal substances. Add to that that you either have to legalize cross-border smuggling or still spend the resources on that and the people smuggling drugs seldom smuggle only weed often also distributing meth, fentanyl, heroin, ecstasy etc

I think the cost savings argument is overestimated and unpersuasive

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A quick search just now found some old DoJ numbers from a report released in 1987. It stated the estimated 500,000 addicts committed an estimated 50,000,000 crimes per year at a cost to the economy of $46.9 billion

That is 100 crimes per addict per year, on average at roughly $970 per crime, and without a doubt those numbers have grown considerably in the interim

A separate report estimates that the annual cost of all aspects of the war on drugs is approximately $50 billion, so that cost is about a wash with the cost of drug based criminality from 1987 and probably less than the cost of such criminality today

Per your post the $50 billion was in addition to the $47 billion, it didn't prevent $47 billion. How are additive costs a wash?

 

[BugI02]

I support the legalization of drugs and prostitution.

You act as if you think that the people turning tricks actually want to, that they will somehow become independent business men and businesswomen if given the opportunity, and that drugs and addiction have nothing to do with it

Why does 'victimless' crime turn out to have so many victims

 

[Ingomike]

You act as if you think that the people turning tricks actually want to, that they will somehow become independent business men and businesswomen if given the opportunity, and that drugs and addiction have nothing to do with it

Why does 'victimless' crime turn out to have so many victims

You are not accounting for the vacuum that is being filled by it being illegal…

 

[Timjoebillybob]

We should start and promote making all mind altering intoxication not cool.

The anti-smoking campaigns have worked pretty well to make smoking no longer cool. Something along that line would do well to promote not altering people's mental status with any chemical.

Bottom line, we shouldn't change any laws. Just change attitudes about how to live life.

I agree with everything but your last sentence. Do what you say and legalize it all. The anti-smoking campaigns as you said seem to be working and it's completely legal well now the same as alcohol if you're 21.

My older brother left as a spark chaser on B52s and came home a pot smoking alcoholic and it took him more than 40 years to hit bottom, and by then his body was shot. He currently has about 1/3 of his bladder left after cancer, is catheterized all the time and is going blind from glaucoma, has COPD and his liver is barely hanging on

Can't say how much or how little to credit to the weed, but that life was often what seemed to drag him back under when he seemed to be making progress. I find the stuff and those who peddle it detestable, feeding off the misery of others just like any other drug dealer

I don't smoke, I don't drink to excess but I do drink a little scotch now and then or wine with dinner. I have no use for other drugs

I can't put it any better than BBI But I do offer you my condolences and can empathize myself. While not technically family my son's mother died from an OD. Although rather than blaming the drugs from the 40 yr comment you probably have a better case against Vietnam.

And honestly about the only of his problems that can be attributed to mj might be the COPD. Heck it might have helped with his glaucoma.
.

I was unaware that home grown cannabis could not be eaten. Who knew!

Next do the 80 year old women of color who don't drive and how we need to distort the entire system of checks and balances placed on voting just to accommodate those very, very few eligible voters so helpless that they can't make arrangements for themselves. It's the same argumentation

Nothing I propose would prevent grandma's grandson from growing some for her, he just couldn't sell it to grandma or sell it to acquaintances or strangers for profit

So, is grandma REALLY the problem here, or is there some other agenda

There is still the time frame problem with regards to growing/processing, unless the grandson already grows. I do know a couple of people who use/used it for medical reasons, here are some examples a person I know suffered from severe migrains bad enough that they would have to go to the hospital for a shot. That meant they had to find someone to drive her there and back and being put down for at least the rest of the day. As in unable to do pretty much anything including housework. With MJ they could take a couple of puffs, be fine in a half hr or usually much less, and be able to function after.

Another died from AIDS, it greatly improved her quality of life. She did have a prescription for synthetic THC but used MJ for a couple of reasons cost and most important time of onset and not having to worry about keeping the pill down long enough for it to get into her system. With it she was able to eat and helped with other symptoms.

And there would still almost have to still be some commercial involvement, where would people get their seeds? And people were always trying to improve the plant. Same with just about anything people grow.

When will we realize that the Dems won't stop at anything? Just regulate automatic guns.... Now they want everything banned. Legalize pot.... Then it's "the war on drugs failed", legalize the next drug, then the next, then it's legal to have just tiny amounts on you, then more and more.... They never stop. Just get vaxxed..... Then a booster, then another, it will be a mandatory yearly injection of chemicals and then more, the next manufactured virus, the next "crisis". It won't stop.

I personally don't like pot, and the people I know personally who do it, aren't recreational. It's their way of life. Order door dash, get fat, sit around praising Bernie Sanders and telling others to pay for their school and health care, etc. They are lazy, and cloud their minds. That's my experience. Obviously I can't say that is everyone, but man, even Hollywood portrays it as cool but the people doing it in the movies are bumbs. Lol. Heroine should be illegal. Obviously pot isn't anywhere near that, but it is definitely a slippery slope worth considering, especially medically.

You do know that there have been multiple bills by Republicans put forth on this subject right? Include the much liked on this site Rep Lucas.

Perhaps you do know people that do use it recreationally, but they know your feelings on the matter and choose not to let you know. And perhaps those that you do know smoke it is because how it effects them. I've known people from all walks of life who get up, go to work, come home and have a couple of tokes. If they didn't tell you, you wouldn't know.

If you list how, I may agree with you. If we legalize everything, then a meth lab can be allowed next door to my house. Nope, that can't happen. You want a heroine dealer on your street?? It's proven that drugs equals addicts which equals crime. They steal, assault, murder, destroy property, etc because of the drugs. Drugs ruin communities. That's a fact. Do you want a heroine addict breaking into your car and house to steal your stuff to pawn and get money for their drugs? Nope. They should be removed from society. Now I could agree they should be put in treatment centers for minor offenses, or first time offenses. But let's be honest, they get out and do it all over again. I'm not saying the war on drugs is perfect, but I'll say it worked in removing my neighbor from my neighborhood and terrorizing his wife and kids and walking into people's houses drugged out of his mind. I understand this is in a small scale. The big scale is the border, which we see every democrat open up and let it all in. So I'm reality, the war on drugs isn't being waged but Dems in govt, and then people go and say...."the war on drugs failed". Lol, it's not even being waged.

To add on to KLB's post how about the case here in IN. Police were in an apartment building, smelled pot in the hallway, knocked on the door and heard "furtive" sounds, they then proceeded to kick in the door and enter, they claimed that they thought the sounds might indicate destruction of evidence. Entry was upheld by the INSC. So claiming they smelled pot and heard furtive sounds is now grounds for warrantless entry and search.

Are you sure there isn't a meth lab or heroine dealer on your block now? And to the rest of the problems that happens now with it being illegal. Do you think a person that enjoys a beer or a glass of whiskey now an then are suddenly say "Hey let's go smoke some meth and shoot up some H now that it's legal? As for your neighbor, from what you described could have been handled by other laws on the books regardless of legality of his drug(s) of choice. From the sound of it possibly domestic abuse and breaking and entering or unlawful entry.

You act as if you think that the people turning tricks actually want to, that they will somehow become independent business men and businesswomen if given the opportunity, and that drugs and addiction have nothing to do with it

Why does 'victimless' crime turn out to have so many victims

How many people do you know that actually want to go into work? I've known very few people that actually want to. And I do know one that while not wanting to choose to do so because it made her the most amount of money with the least amount of time/effort. She was a very high priced escort. Heck how many strippers want to do it? Yet it's legal.

 

[BugI02]

Per your post the $50 billion was in addition to the $47 billion, it didn't prevent $47 billion. How are additive costs a wash?

50 billion spent to deter the availability of drugs, with attendant crimes to support drug habits that are almost certainly much higher than that $46.9 billion in the intervening 34 years. Why do you think that legalizing weed will stop cross border smuggling? So you legalize weed but you still have drug smuggling, addictive drugs, addicts and the crimes they commit to feed their habits. I'm questioning where the savings are supposed to come from since so many are making an economic argument about the cost of the war on drugs. do you somehow believe that lax enforcement will drive DOWN the rate of drug user criminality?

How much data on large smuggling operations is developed via information gotten from smaller players caught in the system.

I might buy some savings in the cost of incarceration if data didn't show that states that legalized had INCREASES in their prison populations unless they also passed criminal justice reform, as well as those two states that passed CJ reform only having a 5% decrease (CO) and 15% decrease (AK) respectively

State Prison Populations – Smart Approaches to Marijuana

learnaboutsam.org

The point being that the economic argument, that there are big savings to be had from legalization, appears to be bull****

 

[Ingomike]

Why do you think that legalizing weed will stop cross border smuggling? So you legalize weed but you still have drug smuggling, addictive drugs, addicts and the crimes they commit to feed their habits.

If one can get pot at a dispensary they are not being upsold to harder drugs by a pusher, as we used to call them for good reason…

 

[Ingomike]

50 billion spent to deter the availability of drugs, with attendant crimes to support drug habits that are almost certainly much higher than that $46.9 billion in the intervening 34 years. Why do you think that legalizing weed will stop cross border smuggling? So you legalize weed but you still have drug smuggling, addictive drugs, addicts and the crimes they commit to feed their habits. I'm questioning where the savings are supposed to come from since so many are making an economic argument about the cost of the war on drugs. do you somehow believe that lax enforcement will drive DOWN the rate of drug user criminality?

How much data on large smuggling operations is developed via information gotten from smaller players caught in the system.

I might buy some savings in the cost of incarceration if data didn't show that states that legalized had INCREASES in their prison populations unless they also passed criminal justice reform, as well as those two states that passed CJ reform only having a 5% decrease (CO) and 15% decrease (AK) respectively

State Prison Populations – Smart Approaches to Marijuana

learnaboutsam.org

The point being that the economic argument, that there are big savings to be had from legalization, appears to be bull****

Did you learn nothing from Breaking Bad?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Heroin:

Heroine:

Just sayin'...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

If one can get pot at a dispensary they are not being upsold to harder drugs by a pusher, as we used to call them for good reason…

 

[BehindBlueI's]

50 billion spent to deter the availability of drugs, with attendant crimes to support drug habits that are almost certainly much higher than that $46.9 billion in the intervening 34 years.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Why do you think that legalizing weed will stop cross border smuggling? So you legalize weed but you still have drug smuggling, addictive drugs, addicts and the crimes they commit to feed their habits.

The war on drugs has made the cartels as rich and as dangerous as they are. I have never seen the Marlboro Man and Joe Camel in a shoot out over who gets to sell cigarettes at the corner store. Push an economy underground and you get...well, what we've got.

do you somehow believe that lax enforcement will drive DOWN the rate of drug user criminality?

Why would I think that? Lax enforcement like for weed or strict enforcement like for crack hasn't driven down rates. Only a cultural shift will.

I might buy some savings in the cost of incarceration if data didn't show that states that legalized had INCREASES in their prison populations unless they also passed criminal justice reform, as well as those two states that passed CJ reform only having a 5% decrease (CO) and 15% decrease (AK) respectively

State Prison Populations – Smart Approaches to Marijuana

learnaboutsam.org

The point being that the economic argument, that there are big savings to be had from legalization, appears to be bull****

Do you not see an issue with using DC as an example for decriminalized marijuana but also citing things like: "D.C. arrests for public use of marijuana nearly tripled last year" and "Marijuana-related arrests up in recent years despite decriminalization" If you can get arrested for it, it's not really legal is it?

Or how many times the website says it can't be tied to legalization for the various states? Or doesn't say who's in prison? I'd rather prison space be used for longer sentences for violent offenders than a bunch of petty dope arrests, and since violent crime is up...

I find it funny the organization you linked to has the mission statement of "preventing another big tobacco." Big tobacco hasn't caused remotely the issues the underground drug economy has.

 

[BugI02]

Or how many times the website says it can't be tied to legalization for the various states? Or doesn't say who's in prison? I'd rather prison space be used for longer sentences for violent offenders than a bunch of petty dope arrests, and since violent crime is up...

As someone said,"facts not in evidence".The narrative I seek to refute is that legalization will free up all that money being used to incarcerate people - not the one your seeking to deflect to

If you read the synopsis of the individual states, you would see there was also no drop in incarceration in the year after legalization. I assume they went for three years after to short circuit the complaint that 'you didn't give it enough time to work its magic'

I gave you the cite because it included data on virtually all of the usual examples of 'something wonderful is going to happen' used by the legalizers in one place. That you would kvetch because DC is included is pretty nit-picky, especially when you use it to gloss over the data from the other states

Can you refute the data or do you just want to complain about the source?

 

[Lex Concord]

I find lines like this are often spoken by 'sailors' who have never left the dock

I hope you know wherefrom you speak. The Founding Fathers understood that only a moral people could successfully govern themselves, and those who got too far into their cups or any other excess would soon starve. Such moral and physical constraints on proper behavior no longer apply, and liberty is now the kid brother of anarchy

I find lines like this are often the focus of those who have no real response to any of the points made in the veritable wall o' text that precedes them.

Why you advocate for government enforcement of moral behavior, I do not know, but I sincerely disagree with you.

 

[BigRed]

Indiana Democrats want to legalize medical and recreational marijuana. They say it will generate a lot of tax revenue.
Obviously, the next step is to legalize prostitution. It will also generate tax revenue and attract conventions (except the FFA) to the state. Additionally, it will provide employment for unskilled young people who don't want to bother with schooling.


Add purple if you think necessary.

Wait until they legalize property and income only to levy a tax.

Welcome to the fallen world.

 

[phylodog]

50 billion spent wasted to deter the availability of drugs

To what end? Record overdoses, records prison populations and a criminal justice system so backed up that we have men accused of murdering more than one person being released on bond for a pittance because there is no more room to house them.

I'm not in favor of crack, coke, meth, heroin, fentanyl, etc. being available over the counter at any corner store but I also cannot see any value in continuing to pour billions of dollars down a project which has never yielded a benefit to society. Prohibition simply does not work. It has never worked.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

As someone said,"facts not in evidence".The narrative I seek to refute is that legalization will free up all that money being used to incarcerate people - not the one your seeking to deflect to

No deflection on my part. You act like I said it would save money. I simply say the resources that are fighting the war on drugs would be better used elsewhere. I would rather have tighter border security, more law enforcement for violent crime, and longer sentences for violent criminals with those resources than petty dope arrests.

There's no need to refute the source, I'm literally using the information that's already present. "DC decriminalized marijuana and marijuana arrests went up" is in that source. That's obviously not the same thing as legalizing marijuana or people wouldn't be arrested for it. That's nitpicky? If you need to see violent crime is up (and everywhere, not just in legalized states) go visit the FBI's UCR page.

There is nothing to refute because there is no information that disproves anything I've said. Arrests go up in states that legalized marijuana (or didn't, see DC). Did they also go up in states that didn't? Without that info, what does the data prove in regards to arrests going up or down based on one law? Nothing, which your own source admits. The link is unproven PER YOUR OWN SOURCE. That page is propaganda presented as data, so no, I'm not going to do your research for you other than to tell you to re-read your own source.

But here's the reality: It doesn't matter. Marijuana will be legalized everywhere in the US eventually. There is so little popular support for keeping it criminal that regardless of your feelings or what data you believe, it will happen. I know nobody believes polls, but feel free to look up Gallup or Pew Research and see the results yourself. The results are plain to see. Cops don't want to make marijuana arrests, so they don't. Prosecutors don't want to file on marijuana arrests, so they don't. Judges don't want to incarcerate over marijuana, so they don't. That's two of three of the branches for checks and balances, the legislators are catching up to the third, and doing so with widespread support from the general citizenry across party lines.

 

[BugI02]

Oregon's own official information used as the source for the Oregon subsection

Department of Corrections : Research and Statistics : Research and Information Requests : State of Oregon

Information on the Research and Evaluation division of the Oregon Department of Corrections, statistical reports, and how to submit research proposals and requests.

www.oregon.gov

Washington's own official information used as the source of the Washington subsection

Prison inmate population | Office of Financial Management

Prison inmate population Fiscal Year June Inmate Population 2022 12,972 2021 13,693 2020 15,829 2019 17,560 2018 18,112 2017 17,868 2016 17,578 2015 17,433 2014 17,502 2013 17,404 2012 17,087 2011 17,058 2010 17,096 2009 17,295 2008 17,104 2007 17,121 2006 16,808 2005 16,663 2004 16,563 2003...

ofm.wa.gov

Alaska's own official information used as the source of the Alaska subsection

https://doc.alaska.gov/admin/docs/2017Profile.pdf

Can't really include Colorado in the list. The links are there to official Colorado publications, but they no longer work for me. It isn't that there is no info there, it is that access is denied - so I guess it isn't public information anymore

But speaking of propaganda, I can certainly see why you want to keep focusing only on DC to try to call into question all of the results. I get that you don't like the way the information is presented, but the information itself is sound

I stand by my assertion that legalization does not free up anywhere near the claimed resources to be used elsewhere - not in enforcement and not in corrections. The reference to 'facts not in evidence' is in reference to your intimation that violent crime is up and suggesting that is why incarcerations are up in Ganja states, without providing ANY proof

 

[Ingomike]

Oregon's own official information used as the source for the Oregon subsection

Department of Corrections : Research and Statistics : Research and Information Requests : State of Oregon

Information on the Research and Evaluation division of the Oregon Department of Corrections, statistical reports, and how to submit research proposals and requests.

www.oregon.gov

Washington's own official information used as the source of the Washington subsection

Prison inmate population | Office of Financial Management

Prison inmate population Fiscal Year June Inmate Population 2022 12,972 2021 13,693 2020 15,829 2019 17,560 2018 18,112 2017 17,868 2016 17,578 2015 17,433 2014 17,502 2013 17,404 2012 17,087 2011 17,058 2010 17,096 2009 17,295 2008 17,104 2007 17,121 2006 16,808 2005 16,663 2004 16,563 2003...

ofm.wa.gov

Alaska's own official information used as the source of the Alaska subsection

https://doc.alaska.gov/admin/docs/2017Profile.pdf

Can't really include Colorado in the list. The links are there to official Colorado publications, but they no longer work for me. It isn't that there is no info there, it is that access is denied - so I guess it isn't public information anymore

But speaking of propaganda, I can certainly see why you want to keep focusing only on DC to try to call into question all of the results. I get that you don't like the way the information is presented, but the information itself is sound

I stand by my assertion that legalization does not free up anywhere near the claimed resources to be used elsewhere - not in enforcement and not in corrections. The reference to 'facts not in evidence' is in reference to your intimation that violent crime is up and suggesting that is why incarcerations are up in Ganja states, without providing ANY proof

Not sure how legalization reduces prison population In a short term sense. Nobody was pardoned as part of legalization so they are still there.

 

[BugI02]

The displayed data is for three years after the year in which they legalized. To get three years or more, wouldn't you have to be dealing? The magic of legalization is not reducing incarceration, so no savings there

If so many pointless arrests were due to otherwise innocents being persecuted for the Ganga, you think there would have been a decrease in incarcerations - which is what the bull**** claims that it will save money are based on