Daylight Saving Time

[Ingomike]

You're making a distinction without a difference. Of people with an opinion on the matter, that opinion is 3:1 in favor of stopping the practice of changing clocks twice a year.

I said absolutely nothing about "voting". I'm refuting your arguments that a) changing clocks is popular, and b) no strong majority exists on the question of continuing vs stopping the practice of changing clocks.

No majority exists on what to replace with if that majority succeeds so the point is moot…

Edit: voting meant supporting not actually voting in my context.

 

[chipbennett]

You may or may not be correct, but this is also not explicitly supported by the YouGov poll. While it does ask their preference between permanent DST or permanent standard time, nowhere (that I can find) does it ask if they would still vote in favor of ending the changing of clocks, even if the result would not be their preferred time.

In other words: "You indicated you don't want to change clocks twice a year, and that your preference is permanent standard time [or permanent DST]. Would you still vote to end changing the clocks twice a year, even if it meant permanent DST [or whatever the opposite of your initial preference]"? That's the question I'd like to see asked.

I don't think the matter will come up to a popular vote. (It will happen in the federal congress, and/or in state legislatures.) That said, were I given a vote, I would be in the camp of preferring permanent standard time, but would vote to stop changing clocks, regardless.

Indiana is on a time zone border, so we are going to be in one extreme or the other. My preference is for extreme Eastern time. But changing to permanent "DST" would just mean that Indiana has moved to extreme Central time. In either scenario, ending the practice of changing clocks twice a year is beneficial.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Even better. Eliminate DST AND time zones.

Everybody operates on UTC. So who cares if you eat dinner at 3am or its light out at 2am. It really just numbers on a clock.

 

[chipbennett]

It really is simple, @chipbennett is hanging his hat on the 62% that don’t want to change clocks twice yearly but why so low? Heck, I am against it too, really, 38% don’t care if they change clocks? Now I do want the benefit of changing clocks and so do many, like me, who don’t want to change clocks.

[Citation Needed]

You're lumping in the Undecideds with the Clock-Changers. The actual ratio, among those expressing an opinion, is 3:1 in favor of not changing clocks.

The survey didn't appear to have a "don't care" option. So, you can't assume that "Not Sure" = "Don't Care".

You just cannot accept that a significant number want that light after work and are willing to change clocks to get it and that they also are willing to shift back for the four winter months so sunrise is not at 9:30 am…

It appears, from this survey, that said "significant number" is limited to 21%, at most.

 

[chipbennett]

So if @chipbennett is right and 62% don’t want to change clocks why doesn’t the political class change it? Because those that don’t like it already don’t like it but live with it and are not affected enough to really fight to change it. Secondly, they would then upset another group if they changed it, so there is no pleasing everyone, so why change when someone is going to not like it anyway?

Wait: how is the 62% my number? It comes from your survey.

As for political momentum to change: it's there. Europe is already moving to drop DST. There are efforts here in the US to do the same. Such things typically take some time to build up steam.

 

[chipbennett]

If you can't give what I clearly asked for, that's fine, but don't pretend that you have or could.

An actual reasoned defense, documenting any positive benefits of perpetual switching which could serve to contrast or counter the documented negatives.

You have again offered nothing more than wants, likes, feelings, preferences, none of which answer what was asked, what is ALWAYS asked. Go back and read your last responses again.

Waiting...

I don't want to be flippant, but the only real benefit appears to be... midnight golf.

(A proxy for evening activities without the need to use artificial light.)

Also: good to see you, ATM!

 

[ATM]

You are waiting on a defense you like, they don’t make one of those…

Liking a defense will not stop me from shredding it. If it's weak, it should fall.

Also, if I take all the "likes" and "wants" out of your responses, what's left to even address???

Give me something...


edit: Nice numbers you got there, Chip, good to see you, too!

 

[Ingomike]

Even better. Eliminate DST AND time zones.

Everybody operates on UTC. So who cares if you eat dinner at 3am or its light out at 2am. It really just numbers on a clock.

I think that sounds good to geeks but most people still want a relevance to the traditional time where work is 8-4 whether in NYC, Chicago, Denver, or LA. That system would take a tremendous amount of resources, time and money to implement.

 

[Ingomike]

[Citation Needed]

You're lumping in the Undecideds with the Clock-Changers. The actual ratio, among those expressing an opinion, is 3:1 in favor of not changing clocks.

The survey didn't appear to have a "don't care" option. So, you can't assume that "Not Sure" = "Don't Care".

It appears, from this survey, that said "significant number" is limited to 21%, at most.

The 38% is those not bothered enough to say they don’t want to stop changing clocks. I said I don’t like changing clocks but it is preferable to not having more daylight in the evening.

 

[Ingomike]

I don't want to be flippant, but the only real benefit appears to be... midnight golf.

(A proxy for evening activities without the need to use artificial light.)

Also: good to see you, ATM!

You got it.

 

[chipbennett]

No majority exists on what to replace with if that majority succeeds so the point is moot…

Edit: voting meant supporting not actually voting in my context.

There is insufficient detail or data regrading how a hypothetical vote would transpire. You are perhaps assuming that if the plan is to move to permanent DST that the permanent ST supporters would vote no (or vice versa). I would assume that most, if not all, of the 62% in favor of not changing clocks would vote for either plan, to effect their desire no longer to change clocks - rather than vote the plan down, because it isn't their preferred plan.

 

[Ingomike]

Liking a defense will not stop me from shredding it. If it's weak, it should fall.

Also, if I take all the "likes" and "wants" out of your responses, what's left to even address???

Give me something...


edit: Nice numbers you got there, Chip, good to see you, too!

Why does it have to be more than simply that people like the result in their life?

 

[Ingomike]

There is insufficient detail or data regrading how a hypothetical vote would transpire. You are perhaps assuming that if the plan is to move to permanent DST that the permanent ST supporters would vote no (or vice versa). I would assume that most, if not all, of the 62% in favor of not changing clocks would vote for either plan, to effect their desire no longer to change clocks - rather than vote the plan down, because it isn't their preferred plan.

And you also “assume” that the changing of the clocks is primary over the desire to have the permanent time they desire. That too is unknown but it certainly wouldn’t be 100% either way…

 

[chipbennett]

The 38% is those not bothered enough to say they don’t like changing clocks. I said I don’t like changing clocks but it is preferable to not having more daylight in the evening.

No. You're misconstruing the survey responses. The survey didn't ask if respondents liked changing clocks. It asked respondents if they wanted to stop changing clocks:

Of those 38%:
21% want to keep changing clocks.
17% are unsure if they do or do not want to keep changing clocks.

 

[chipbennett]

And you also “assume” that the changing of the clocks is primary over the desire to have the permanent time they desire. That too is unknown but it certainly wouldn’t be 100% either way…

Yes, I make that assumption. And I state that it is an assumption that I make.

 

[Ingomike]

No. You're misconstruing the survey responses. The survey didn't ask if respondents liked changing clocks. It asked respondents if they wanted to stop changing clocks:
View attachment 338359
Of those 38%:
21% want to keep changing clocks.
17% are unsure if they do or do not want to keep changing clocks.

I did not say they “liked” changing clocks, clearly the 17% were not bothered by the need to change clocks or they would have indicated it so. They are definitely learners…

 

[ATM]

Why does it have to be more than simply that people like the result in their life?

The costs. A defense is warranted to overcome the burden, the price, the tangible negatives, the carnage and death ...facts which care nothing of feelings.

Why not play midnight golf after work all winter? Why would you hate that? Looking for reasons, please.

 

[Ingomike]

The costs. A defense is warranted to overcome the burden, the price, the tangible negatives, the carnage and death ...facts which care nothing of feelings.

It makes my life better. That is all I need to support it.

Why not play midnight golf after work all winter? Why would you hate that? Looking for reasons, please.

Most folks, including me, do not want 9:30 am sunrises…

 

[ATM]

It makes my life better. That is all I need to support it.


Most folks, including me, do not want 9:30 am sunrises…

I asked for reasons why and even said please, but this is all you have. I'll leave you to your feelings

Back to memes!

 

[DoggyDaddy]

but kids don't have to go to school in the dark in winter, either.

But they have to go in the dark in spring and fall. And by the time winter gets here, some of them are having to go in the dark anyhow even on standard time. So where's the advantage again?