Daylight Saving Time

[Ingomike]

Ripping apart the survey that you linked/referenced because it actually disproves your argument is... a tactic, I guess.

Bug linked it I relinked it to a response.

 

[Ingomike]

The undecideds weren't included in either the 61% (62%) or the 21%.

62% + 21% = 83%. Undecideds were 17%. Total = 100%.

Did you even read the data in the survey you posted?

View attachment 338278

This is the actual data that exposes the rift in the 62%. Not a majority in it.

Policies that Americans prefer​

A bar chart showing what policy Americans prefer according to a YouGov poll on Daylight Saving Time.

Change to permanent DST
31%

Keep changing clocks twice a year
21%

Change to permanent standard time
19%

Not sure if change
17%

Change, but no preference/not sure
11%

Chart: Shayanne Gal/Insider Source: YouGov poll from March 6–9, 2023

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I believe that the management of time is an appropriate function of government.

I don't. Keeping time based on a 24-hour day, with no need for clock changes twice a year, existed long before the US government, and has spanned across many government and cultures. Something that embedded in society shouldn't be tampered with from the top down by politicians.

If you look at the numbers I posted in post #448, from the article, even if the 11% like you were added to the 31%, that still is far from a majority. That is the largest group.

What he said:

The undecideds weren't included in either the 61% (62%) or the 21%.

62% + 21% = 83%. Undecideds were 17%. Total = 100%.

Did you even read the data in the survey you posted?

View attachment 338278

 

[AndreusMaximus]

This is the actual data that exposes the rift in the 62%. Not a majority in it.

Policies that Americans prefer​

A bar chart showing what policy Americans prefer according to a YouGov poll on Daylight Saving Time.

Change to permanent DST
31%

Keep changing clocks twice a year
21%

Change to permanent standard time
19%

Not sure if change
17%

Change, but no preference/not sure
11%

Chart: Shayanne Gal/Insider Source: YouGov poll from March 6–9, 2023

I can't seem to find these numbers in the document you linked. For some reason my browser won't let me know a search in the pdf, and scanning through it I can't find any bar chart. Which page is it on?

 

[chipbennett]

This is the actual data that exposes the rift in the 62%. Not a majority in it.

Policies that Americans prefer​

A bar chart showing what policy Americans prefer according to a YouGov poll on Daylight Saving Time.

Change to permanent DST
31%

Keep changing clocks twice a year
21%

Change to permanent standard time
19%

Not sure if change
17%

Change, but no preference/not sure
11%

Chart: Shayanne Gal/Insider Source: YouGov poll from March 6–9, 2023

The only "rift" is where to set the clocks. All 62% want to stop changing clocks:

Stop Changing Clocks (Permanent DST): 31%
Stop Changing Clocks (Permanent ST): 19%
Stop Changing Clocks (No Preference Between DST/ST): 11%

Total "Stop Changing Clocks": 62% (PROTIP: this is a majority)
Total "Keep Changing Clocks": 21%

Unsure: 17%

 

[Ingomike]

The only "rift" is where to set the clocks. All 62% want to stop changing clocks:

Stop Changing Clocks (Permanent DST): 31%
Stop Changing Clocks (Permanent ST): 19%
Stop Changing Clocks (No Preference Between DST/ST): 11%

Total "Stop Changing Clocks": 62% (PROTIP: this is a majority)
Total "Keep Changing Clocks": 21%

Unsure: 17%

You keep creating a majority that will not vote together because they are opposed on the second aspect of the decision to stop changing clocks. They also must agree on the time zone. They do not and my experience is they will not agree.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

This is the actual data that exposes the rift in the 62%. Not a majority in it.

Policies that Americans prefer​

A bar chart showing what policy Americans prefer according to a YouGov poll on Daylight Saving Time.

Change to permanent DST
31%

Keep changing clocks twice a year
21%

Change to permanent standard time
19%

Not sure if change
17%

Change, but no preference/not sure
11%

Chart: Shayanne Gal/Insider Source: YouGov poll from March 6–9, 2023

Aha, found your bar chart. It's the third bar chart in the article here: https://www.businessinsider.com/daylight-saving-time-polling-shows-americans-utterly-divided-2023-3

That bar chart claims to use the YouGov poll as a source (https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/etwjvohrxx/Daylight_Saving_Time_Toplines_Crosstabs.pdf) but looking through the YouGov poll, I can't find the numbers that the bar chart claims. It's also contradicted by the second question in the poll, which shows 62% want to stop changing, 21% want to keep changing, and 17% are undecided.

If we add the numbers you posted from the bar chart, it would be 50% (31%+19%) want to stop changing, 32% want to keep changing (21%+11%, not sure on this one, since I don't know how to interpret "Change, but no preference/not sure") and 17% undecided. This appears to simply be a flat contradiction of the actual YouGov poll it cites.

Edit: never mind, I figured it out. "Change, but no preference/not sure" means stop changing clocks, I don't care what time we end up with. So actually the bard chart is right, just confusing (to me.)

 

[AndreusMaximus]

You keep creating a majority that will not vote together because they are opposed on the second aspect of the decision to stop changing clocks. They also must agree on the time zone. They do not and my experience is they will not agree.

You may or may not be correct, but this is also not explicitly supported by the YouGov poll. While it does ask their preference between permanent DST or permanent standard time, nowhere (that I can find) does it ask if they would still vote in favor of ending the changing of clocks, even if the result would not be their preferred time.

In other words: "You indicated you don't want to change clocks twice a year, and that your preference is permanent standard time [or permanent DST]. Would you still vote to end changing the clocks twice a year, even if it meant permanent DST [or whatever the opposite of your initial preference]"? That's the question I'd like to see asked.

 

[Ballstater98]

 

[Ingomike]

I don't. Keeping time based on a 24-hour day, with no need for clock changes twice a year, existed long before the US government, and has spanned across many government and cultures. Something that embedded in society shouldn't be tampered with from the top down by politicians.

Before the government got involved each individual company kept their own time, whether it was the company town time, or each railroad keeping their own time and they often were very different. I don’t think folks appreciate the organization that has been implemented.

Not exactly sure what you mean here: “Keeping time based on a 24-hour day, with no need for clock changes twice a year, existed long before the US government”. Time as we know it with zones and organization did not occur until late nineteenth century.

 

[ATM]

I believe that the management of time is an appropriate function of government.

Oh, sure, until you do something they don't like and get pruned from the timeline!

Good to see you still here getting the stuffing pounded out of your position preference as always (and for all time!)

We're STILL waiting for an actual reasoned defense of continuing to switch back and forth, still no stated benefit of shifting every schedule back by one hour for a 4-month winter time variance from the norm.

The unpopularity and damages of switching, being so well documented, it seems a defense of continuing to switch is warranted ...yet absent.

Do get to it (if you have anything of substance this year), I look forward to you all catching back up to me soon!

 

[Ingomike]

We're STILL waiting for an actual reasoned defense of continuing to switch back and forth, still no stated benefit of shifting every schedule back by one hour for a 4-month winter time variance from the norm.

The unpopularity and damages of switching, being so well documented, it seems a defense of continuing to switch is warranted ...yet absent.

Do get to it (if you have anything of substance this year), I look forward to you all catching back up to me soon!

It really is simple, @chipbennett is hanging his hat on the 62% that don’t want to change clocks twice yearly but why so low? Heck, I am against it too, really, 38% don’t care if they change clocks? Now I do want the benefit of changing clocks and so do many, like me, who don’t want to change clocks.

You just cannot accept that a significant number want that light after work and are willing to change clocks to get it and that they also are willing to shift back for the four winter months so sunrise is not at 9:30 am…

 

[Ingomike]

So if @chipbennett is right and 62% don’t want to change clocks why doesn’t the political class change it? Because those that don’t like it already don’t like it but live with it and are not affected enough to really fight to change it. Secondly, they would then upset another group if they changed it, so there is no pleasing everyone, so why change when someone is going to not like it anyway?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Before the government got involved each individual company kept their own time, whether it was the company town time, or each railroad keeping their own time and they often were very different. I don’t think folks appreciate the organization that has been implemented.

Not exactly sure what you mean here: “Keeping time based on a 24-hour day, with no need for clock changes twice a year, existed long before the US government”. Time as we know it with zones and organization did not occur until late nineteenth century.

Well, I meant just what I said: The 24-hour day predates the US government.

Yes, time zones and so forth came later, at least partly due to some obvious technological restrictions. I admit that I am rather ignorant of the process that was involved in setting all that up, so maybe I would have to amend my statement to say that some government involvement in timekeeping is warranted. I suppose it would be awfully hard to coordinate multiple nations on any kind of synchronized time schedule without governments being involved, after all.

But to me it just seems categorically different to set up time zones, which are just a natural extension of the way people would operate under older technology where they just keep time based on the position of the sun/stars on their little sliver of earth, vs. making a complete change to the millennia-old 24 hour day by chopping out an hour here and adding an hour there.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

So if @chipbennett is right and 62% don’t want to change clocks why doesn’t the political class change it? Because those that don’t like it already don’t like it but live with it and are not affected enough to really fight to change it. Secondly, they would then upset another group if they changed it, so there is no pleasing everyone, so why change when someone is going to not like it anyway?

Yeah, I think you got it pretty much right.

The folks who don't like DST don't have a particularly burning motivation to change it. By and large, they just put up with it as an annoying, but minor inconvenience that doesn't really make sense to them, in my experience.

On the other hand, whoever came up with DST, as well as the folks who got on board with them, are convinced that they've got the greatest invention since sliced bread. Just a couple easy changes to the clock twice a year, and boom, you've come up with a system that gives the best of both worlds: maximum daylight hours after work in the summer, but kids don't have to go to school in the dark in winter, either. It's almost magical! Thus the pro-DST crowd sees themselves as the holy prophets of a new, better way that will bring about wondrous changes to the world, if only the unwashed masses can be enlightened enough to see its glory. This burning motivation allows them to wield greater political influence, despite being a minority.

Okay, sorry, I may have gone overboard with that analogy, but I have to join in the teasing sometimes, too, right?

 

[ATM]

If you can't give what I clearly asked for, that's fine, but don't pretend that you have or could.

An actual reasoned defense, documenting any positive benefits of perpetual switching which could serve to contrast or counter the documented negatives.

You have again offered nothing more than wants, likes, feelings, preferences, none of which answer what was asked, what is ALWAYS asked. Go back and read your last responses again.

Waiting...

 

[foszoe]

I want everyone to set their clocks forward 5 min every month for a year then se t them back 5 min every month for a year until people realize that changing clocks is stupid.

 

[Ingomike]

Well, I meant just what I said: The 24-hour day predates the US government.

Yes, time zones and so forth came later, at least partly due to some obvious technological restrictions. I admit that I am rather ignorant of the process that was involved in setting all that up, so maybe I would have to amend my statement to say that some government involvement in timekeeping is warranted. I suppose it would be awfully hard to coordinate multiple nations on any kind of synchronized time schedule without governments being involved, after all.

Yes, and that international coordination was the big stated reason Daniels passed the law to put us on DST with most of the rest of the country.

But to me it just seems categorically different to set up time zones, which are just a natural extension of the way people would operate under older technology where they just keep time based on the position of the sun/stars on their little sliver of earth, vs. making a complete change to the millennia-old 24 hour day by chopping out an hour here and adding an hour there.

The sun/nature does not operate in zones, people do. If every town followed solar noon then every 80 miles there would be about a 6 minute difference. I expect that the center of a time zone is very close to noon equals solar noon or SN+DST. That necessarily means that the eastern edge is a half hour early and the west edge a half hour late. From NYC to Terre Haute there is approximately a one hour difference in solar time. Todays sunsets are NYC/5:54 and TH/6:48.

No one is chopping or adding anything, what they are doing is shifting societies time to allow the most time possible after the typical workday with the daylight available, something many find beneficial…

 

[Ingomike]

If you can't give what I clearly asked for, that's fine, but don't pretend that you have or could.

An actual reasoned defense, documenting any positive benefits of perpetual switching which could serve to contrast or counter the documented negatives.

You have again offered nothing more than wants, likes, feelings, preferences, none of which answer what was asked, what is ALWAYS asked. Go back and read your last responses again.

Waiting...

You are waiting on a defense you like, they don’t make one of those…

 

[chipbennett]

You keep creating a majority that will not vote together because they are opposed on the second aspect of the decision to stop changing clocks. They also must agree on the time zone. They do not and my experience is they will not agree.

You're making a distinction without a difference. Of people with an opinion on the matter, that opinion is 3:1 in favor of stopping the practice of changing clocks twice a year.

I said absolutely nothing about "voting". I'm refuting your arguments that a) changing clocks is popular, and b) no strong majority exists on the question of continuing vs stopping the practice of changing clocks.