Daylight Saving Time

[chipbennett]

Isn't there a saying about absence of evidence? The truth value of a proposition exists whether one has discovered evidence or not. So I'm a bit surprised that you'd say something that without evidence something isn't true. Or maybe you might have used clearer wording.

The positive claim requires evidence to support the claim.

In matters of subjectivity/opinion, "truth" can only be known with sufficient evidence to demonstrate that truth explicitly. Matters of objective truth might possibly be known implicitly.

Thus far, I've seen a lot of assertions regarding what "most people" do, or prefer, and precious little attempt even to provide a modicum of actual evidence to support the assertions.

 

[jamil]

It's not mere semantics. Morning/pre-work daylight hours are useful to me, and I make use of them. I suspect that most people who argue for more evening daylight hours make little to no use of their pre-work hours, daylight or otherwise.

It depends when your workday starts relative to when you wake up. I start work ~8AM. For me to have the same hours of daylight I would get after work with DST, the clock would need to say 3:30 AM on the dial at sunrise. How practical is that for most people? Now, if I did not have to start work until 4-1/2 hours after sunrise, or, I retired from work, then my priorities would change. If I'm retired, I'd probably not give a flying **** about this conversation. I'd just eat popcorn and be entertained by it.

Case in point. Last year I had an outdoor project I was working on. I was fighting seasonal changes so I was in a hurry to get it done. I worked from sun up until it was time to start work. And then I worked from quitting time to dusk. I had a lot more usable work hours after work than before. If you don't have to be working until mid-morning, I could see why you might find more usable hours in the AM.

 

[chipbennett]

It depends when your workday starts relative to when you wake up. I start work ~8AM. For me to have the same hours of daylight I would get after work with DST, the clock would need to say 3:30 AM on the dial at sunrise. How practical is that for most people? Now, if I did not have to start work until 4-1/2 hours after sunrise, or, I retired from work, then my priorities would change. If I'm retired, I'd probably not give a flying **** about this conversation. I'd just eat popcorn and be entertained by it.

Case in point. Last year I had an outdoor project I was working on. I was fighting seasonal changes so I was in a hurry to get it done. I worked from sun up until it was time to start work. And then I worked from quitting time to dusk. I had a lot more usable work hours after work than before. If you don't have to be working until mid-morning, I could see why you might find more usable hours in the AM.

Who said anything about having the same amount of hours pre-work as post-work? That's a bit of a leap, especially for someone who likes to point out others' straw-man arguments.

 

[jamil]

The positive claim requires evidence to support the claim.

In matters of subjectivity/opinion, "truth" can only be known with sufficient evidence to demonstrate that truth explicitly. Matters of objective truth might possibly be known implicitly.

Thus far, I've seen a lot of assertions regarding what "most people" do, or prefer, and precious little attempt even to provide a modicum of actual evidence to support the assertions.

The claim requires evidence to support the claim. That is independent from its actual truth value.

In subjective issues, what is sought isn't "truth" as much as it is what is true for some people. 10mm is the best overall handgun round. Right? it's true for me. It's my fav.

I think I would say that matters of subjective truth might be known instinctively. And I do agree that matters of objective truth might be known implicitly. But I don't find that the case most often. You kinda need to have some evidence.

Which we kinda have on this subject. I recall posting a poll on preferences one of the other clock switch arguments. Most people want to stop changing clocks (clock absolutists). And a minority of people want to remain clock flippers. Of the clock absolutists, more want to make DST permanent.

 

[jamil]

Who said anything about having the same amount of hours pre-work as post-work? That's a bit of a leap, especially for someone who likes to point out others' straw-man arguments.

Why is that a straw man argument. How can it even be a straw man argument. I'm not claiming you're saying that. I'm claiming that's what *I* value. It is a choice, after all. A preference. I am saying that for me to WANT the clocks to give me more time in the AM, the sun needs to rise at 3:30 AM to give me the same amount of daylight.

I want to be outside in the daytime as much as possible when the weather is nice. That is what is driving my preference. I am making no claim about your preference. But I suppose I am making the claim that it IS a preference. I'd like you to acknowledge that. Because that is true. Implicitly. Objectively. But not necessarily instinctively.

 

[rhamersley]

10mm is the best overall handgun round. Right? it's true for me.

As an aside, is it true that you can never find the bullets when you need them?

Carry on...

 

[jamil]

Serious question for all of you. I am curious how individual sleep habits affect folks. I thankfully sleep very well while being a night owl and a morning deadhead. Seems logical I would like later sunsets relative to the work day.

I suspect those that dislike the current time structure (leaving out the changing of clocks) are early risers and or short sleepers.

Does this seem true to you?

I tend to be a morning person. Kinda. I usually go to bed ~11PM. I get up between 6 - 7 AM. Usually closer to 6. I rarely get much more than 7 hours of sleep. I just wake up and I can't sleep longer. I have not used an alarm clock for years.

I prefer DST over ST. I'd rather be outside when I'm not working, when the weather is nice. I like that it stays light around here until 9:45PM.

 

[jamil]

As an aside, is it true that you can never find the bullets when you need them?

Carry on...

10mm is the best overall nut/bolt size. Apparently. But why sockets? I never lose a 10mm wrench. It's always the socket.

Who's had to buy a whole socket set because you desperately need a 10mm socket because you can't get the wrench in there, you can't find your 3/8 either, you rounded the corners trying to use a 7/16, your neighbor can't find his 10mm either, and the hardware store is out of 10mm singles?

Whoever invented 10mm nuts/bolts and sockets to turn them, probably also invented time flipping.

 

[chipbennett]

The claim requires evidence to support the claim. That is independent from its actual truth value.

In subjective issues, what is sought isn't "truth" as much as it is what is true for some people. 10mm is the best overall handgun round. Right? it's true for me. It's my fav.

I think I would say that matters of subjective truth might be known instinctively. And I do agree that matters of objective truth might be known implicitly. But I don't find that the case most often. You kinda need to have some evidence.

Which we kinda have on this subject. I recall posting a poll on preferences one of the other clock switch arguments. Most people want to stop changing clocks (clock absolutists). And a minority of people want to remain clock flippers. Of the clock absolutists, more want to make DST permanent.

Is it your claim that the subset of INGO that participated in said poll represents even all of INGO, much less, constitutes a representative sample of American society as a whole?

 

[chipbennett]

Why is that a straw man argument. How can it even be a straw man argument. I'm not claiming you're saying that. I'm claiming that's what *I* value. It is a choice, after all. A preference. I am saying that for me to WANT the clocks to give me more time in the AM, the sun needs to rise at 3:30 AM to give me the same amount of daylight.

I want to be outside in the daytime as much as possible when the weather is nice. That is what is driving my preference. I am making no claim about your preference. But I suppose I am making the claim that it IS a preference. I'd like you to acknowledge that. Because that is true. Implicitly. Objectively. But not necessarily instinctively.

Nah. To say that the preference is to have an equal number of daylight hours before work as one might have after work is a straw man here. It is presented as a counter to the argument that some people find pre-work hours useful and productive. It is a ridiculous constraint on the preference to have productive, pre-work, daylight hours.

I fully concede that you have stated your preference to have an equal number of daylight hours before work as you have after work. Duly noted and conceded. How does that statement of preference inform a discussion regarding DST eliminating an actual hour of pre-work daylight, as it does currently, from 11 March - 18 April, and from 27 August - 05 November (approximately) - i.e. for approximately 15 weeks of the year?

 

[femurphy77]

Whatever happened to that "Will argue for sammiches" dude?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Whatever happened to that "Will argue for sammiches" dude?

He hasn't chimed in yet. Not close enough to the time change. But like the swallows returning to Capistrano, I'm sure @ATM will return to this thread.

 

[nonobaddog]

For those who make a big deal out of changing some clocks, maybe this would be a good time to start practicing so it is easier when the big day, or night, comes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

For those who make a big deal out of changing some clocks, maybe this would be a good time to start practicing so it is easier when the big day, or night, comes.

I'll be changing mine Saturday afternoon. That way I'll remember to start drinking an hour earlier than usual.

 

[jamil]

Is it your claim that the subset of INGO that participated in said poll represents even all of INGO, much less, constitutes a representative sample of American society as a whole?

I guess that was clunky wording. I should have said it was national polling results.

 

[BugI02]

Trump supports not changing the clocks.

Trump To America: Let's Make Daylight Saving Time Permanent

As the United States wakes up sleep-deprived Monday morning, Trump announces he supports permanent daylight saving time in 2019 and beyond. President Trump is just as tired as the rest of America in switching our clocks twice a year.

www.forbes.com

He supports the wrong version of that

He's probably a midnight golfer

 

[BugI02]

Best: permanent standard time

D'accord !!!!

 

[BugI02]

I'm not retired, self-employed, or a farmer. I find usefulness/productivity in waking hours prior to my working hours. I am not alone. I just differ from those who are biased toward after work hours.

Agreed. Before I retired (and when I wasn't traveling), I usually arrived at my office between 0600 and 0700 because I found it more productive to do things like answering emails or pre-planning an upcoming project rather than spending twice as long sitting in traffic

Very few were at the office that early and it made for a quiet, efficient environment

 

[BugI02]

Right, clocks and time are man made, therefore it is not a violation of nature to adjust that man made equipment to better utilize the sun for the most people.

Uhhh, physics has proven that time exists independent of human perception of it

It existed at the beginning of everything of man and will continue to exist long after, it certainly isn't man made

 

[BugI02]

You're going to have to explain how it would be preferable for Indiana permanently to use a time that is two hours ahead of our annual sunlight cycle.

because;midnight golf