Colt again selling to us mere mortals

[Clay Pigeon]

Just making sure. No worries.

I read back.

Nobodys drunk posting...................................................... YET.....

 

[churchmouse]

Nobodys drunk posting...................................................... YET.....

KJ loves his Colts and rightfully so.

 

[KJQ6945]

I have a Colt AR. from 1993 or 94.
I like it.
I think it's great.
I just don't think it's the "gold standard".

Mil-Spec is good. But it's not the "gold standard".
So when someone (not you) tells me "It's Mil-Spec", or "It's Military Grade", I have to work hard to keep the eyeballs from rolling up into the top of my head.

Act, you know me, and you’ve shot my guns. Colt is the bare minimum, not the end all be all of the AR world. There are several better, but, there are multitudes that are worse.
My guess is, most of the people *****ing about them are shooting something way worse. Just a guess.

 

[Nickbau5]

I don't see why you're so hung up about "show me your specs", seems like a bit of a superiority issue because you fail to understand that technology has progressed in 50 years and we don't need to stick to old specs just because "they work". I don't buy ARs prebuilt, my 2 ARs have been build piecemeal, my first AR has a milspec trigger and I hate it, it has an 8lb triggerpull. My 5.56 AR is from an 80% lower, anderson upper, Balistics Advantage barrel, A2 birdcage, standard carbine receiver extension, milspec buffer/spring, magpul ACS stock, toolcraft BCG and an ergo grip, and I can say that the only milspec part on that gun that I think is decent is the birdcage, receiver extention, and upper, pretty much the pieces that don't do much for performance, the other milspec parts need to be upgraded because they aren't really what I like/just aren't the best parts available, ie cheapest.

My other AR is a glock AR9 with an NFA upper and lower, Balistics Advantage barrel, Silencerco 3-prong flash hider, B5 grip, Rise Armament trigger, JS Silent Capture Spring, Maxim PDW brace/recever extension, and Spinta 9mm BCG, only mispec on there are non-performance parts like safety.

Why do you feel we need to stick to the old just because "it works", milspec is pretty much the bottom level of what is acceptable, but paying colt prices for it is the issue here. I have no issues with a person buying milspec, I do have issues with a person buying milspec, and then claiming it's better than all other milspec because of a pony on the side. Milspec, when compared to the performance of newer products, is bad in comparison. I wouldn't pay more than PSA prices for a milspec rifle, because by your own words, all milspec is the same specs, so why would they be any different, why would you pay a premium for a brand if it is to the same exact spec?

And as for the "how many bodies on the ground" argument, I don't see how that's a factor, because PSA isn't a gov contractor, they don't fight to be one, they want to sell to citizens, while colt doesn't care about the commercial market. This is a bad argument and only serves as a red herring.

 

[Ggreen]

Colt is bottom barrel. Today It takes very little effort to make a decent ar15 clean out magazines. They put out a minimum spec rifle with questionable qc, the rash of miss staked gas keys weren't even close, and upcharge hoping to capitalize on veterans emotional connection to their old m16 or m4. They just aren't a good rifle, definitely not one I'd order without inspecting first. Outdated cheap furniture, high deck, bottom rung parts kits... They are better than an ati or a diamondback, but those are 600 dollar rifles. Colts don't touch bcm, solgw, ADM, geissele, Barrett, Daniel defense, or any other manufacturer competing in the colt price range.

They are literally playing your emotional connection to your service rifle and gouging you for a watered down dumpster fire tier ar.

The only part of mil spec that matters for civilians is the upper to lower alignment, buffer threads, true upper reciever, and true trigger holes. Everything else has been eclipsed and improved.

 

[Tombs]

Colt is bottom barrel. Today It takes very little effort to make a decent ar15 clean out magazines. They put out a minimum spec rifle with questionable qc, the rash of miss staked gas keys weren't even close, and upcharge hoping to capitalize on veterans emotional connection to their old m16 or m4. They just aren't a good rifle, definitely not one I'd order without inspecting first. Outdated cheap furniture, high deck, bottom rung parts kits... They are better than an ati or a diamondback, but those are 600 dollar rifles. Colts don't touch bcm, solgw, ADM, geissele, Barrett, Daniel defense, or any other manufacturer competing in the colt price range.

They are literally playing your emotional connection to your service rifle and gouging you for a watered down dumpster fire tier ar.

The only part of mil spec that matters for civilians is the upper to lower alignment, buffer threads, true upper reciever, and true trigger holes. Everything else has been eclipsed and improved.

I think you folks should really cut Colt some slack with pricing, until just now they've generally been reasonably priced for a gun that doesn't lose its value and is largely made correctly.

If you want to direct your hate and angst towards a company for trying to cash in on veterans, look at FN and the military collector's series. $1700 for a standard carbine gassed M4 with a knights RIS. But because it carries a UUID label and FN's marketing, it's directly taking the **** towards vets. How about the M249S for $8k?

As far as self builds, yeah you can have all of that you want. I wouldn't buy a gun made by my neighbor just like I wouldn't buy a fire-extinguisher made by my neighbor. I'm also not going to build a piece of life saving equipment myself regardless how mechanically inclined I am.
I also prefer that furniture that the gee-wizzers like to throw away. It's light, comfortable, and easily replaced if you damage it from actually using the rifle as intended. Unlike gucci multi hundred dollar rail systems that have no purpose unless you're running night vision and need an illuminator/laser combo. There's also a wide margin between the cheap normal furniture and the good stuff that colt uses. I really like the furniture RRA uses, especially their dual heatshield handguards, those are some of the nicest feeling of the lot.

I also don't buy the argument that nitride is "just as good" as milspec chrome lining. Nor do I feel loctite is a suitable replacement for properly staking a castle nut. Nor do I feel set screws are a suitable replacement for a pinned on FSB. These specifications were worked out through decades of blood, and I'm not native enough to think I know better.

Now the situation with milspec when it comes to the M9 is another can of worms entirely. The specification has prevented adoption of improved locking components engineered by beretta themselves to double the life span of the handgun, but because of the specifications, they can not be used.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I don't see why you're so hung up about "show me your specs", seems like a bit of a superiority issue because you fail to understand that technology has progressed in 50 years and we don't need to stick to old specs just because "they work". I don't buy ARs prebuilt, my 2 ARs have been build piecemeal, my first AR has a milspec trigger and I hate it, it has an 8lb triggerpull. My 5.56 AR is from an 80% lower, anderson upper, Balistics Advantage barrel, A2 birdcage, standard carbine receiver extension, milspec buffer/spring, magpul ACS stock, toolcraft BCG and an ergo grip, and I can say that the only milspec part on that gun that I think is decent is the birdcage, receiver extention, and upper, pretty much the pieces that don't do much for performance, the other milspec parts need to be upgraded because they aren't really what I like/just aren't the best parts available, ie cheapest.

My other AR is a glock AR9 with an NFA upper and lower, Balistics Advantage barrel, Silencerco 3-prong flash hider, B5 grip, Rise Armament trigger, JS Silent Capture Spring, Maxim PDW brace/recever extension, and Spinta 9mm BCG, only mispec on there are non-performance parts like safety.

Why do you feel we need to stick to the old just because "it works", milspec is pretty much the bottom level of what is acceptable, but paying colt prices for it is the issue here. I have no issues with a person buying milspec, I do have issues with a person buying milspec, and then claiming it's better than all other milspec because of a pony on the side. Milspec, when compared to the performance of newer products, is bad in comparison. I wouldn't pay more than PSA prices for a milspec rifle, because by your own words, all milspec is the same specs, so why would they be any different, why would you pay a premium for a brand if it is to the same exact spec?

And as for the "how many bodies on the ground" argument, I don't see how that's a factor, because PSA isn't a gov contractor, they don't fight to be one, they want to sell to citizens, while colt doesn't care about the commercial market. This is a bad argument and only serves as a red herring.

And you believe thats a improvement over a factory Colt in performance and return on investment..... billet upper/lower compared to forged just for starters......
Whats next your red dot will take a better beating than the Marines ACOG?
I guarantee Colt has sold more AR/M16 rifles to the public/Uncle Sam than any other manufacture out there, they have only been selling them since 1964.
And why would you thing that the Milspec with the M16 hasn't changed since 1964?

I think its interesting that some folks believe they can build a better preforming firearm with unknown specs with a visa card off the internet than a manufacture that has been doing it for better than 56 years.

You Millennial's make me laugh...
You still haven't posted the build specs of your two AR's???? You post that yours are better than that cheap Milspec...
Show us...

 

[Ggreen]

I think you folks should really cut Colt some slack with pricing, until just now they've generally been reasonably priced for a gun that doesn't lose its value and is largely made correctly.

If you want to direct your hate and angst towards a company for trying to cash in on veterans, look at FN and the military collector's series. $1700 for a standard carbine gassed M4 with a knights RIS. But because it carries a UUID label and FN's marketing, it's directly taking the **** towards vets. How about the M249S for $8k?

As far as self builds, yeah you can have all of that you want. I wouldn't buy a gun made by my neighbor just like I wouldn't buy a fire-extinguisher made by my neighbor. I'm also not going to build a piece of life saving equipment myself regardless how mechanically inclined I am.
I also prefer that furniture that the gee-wizzers like to throw away. It's light, comfortable, and easily replaced if you damage it from actually using the rifle as intended. Unlike gucci multi hundred dollar rail systems that have no purpose unless you're running night vision and need an illuminator/laser combo. There's also a wide margin between the cheap normal furniture and the good stuff that colt uses. I really like the furniture RRA uses, especially their dual heatshield handguards, those are some of the nicest feeling of the lot.

I also don't buy the argument that nitride is "just as good" as milspec chrome lining. Nor do I feel loctite is a suitable replacement for properly staking a castle nut. Nor do I feel set screws are a suitable replacement for a pinned on FSB. These specifications were worked out through decades of blood, and I'm not native enough to think I know better.

I won't cut them a break on pricing. A 6920 costs colt about 250 dollars on the high end. It's a bottom barrel gun they are gouging customers with. FN at least has a Knights rail ambi safety and proper rear buis.

There is zero reason a quality ar15 has a plastic handguard today, outside of cloning or contractual requirement. Mounting a light to the fsp is not acceptable anymore.

Who do you think is on the assembly line at colt? It's your neighbors and cousins. Have you seen the requirements for an assembly job there, they aren't high. Building an ar15 is not a precision task. If anything geissele and solgw probably have the most educated assemblers in the ar15 world as they actually have a management that cares about quality building.

Mil spec chrome lining is literally only a good thing for select fire. It actually decreases accuracy of a proper barrel. There is no reason for chrome lined barrels on a semi automatic gun. In all purposes other than fully automatic fire chrome lining is a negative. So nitride isn't just as good, it's generally better than chrome in a semi auto (and on engine cylinder walls)

I've never seen a castle nut loctited, I've seen a barrel nut loctited, here's looking at you BCA. Staking takes about 15 seconds with a hammer and punch. I've seen the colt 6920 bolt carriers with the completely missed gas key staking, if you can't get a gas key done right with a jig...

Most quality manufacturers and builders use pinned low profile gas blocks, but it's largely unnecessary loctite will keep a set screw in no problem. I've seen multiple pinned fsb's rattle pins out, it's a well documented shortcoming addressed in many armorers manuals. If my gun has a front sight post I definitely want it pinned, but if it's a low profile gas block set screws are completely fine.

what military did everyone serve in with these perfect stoner rifles? Every issued rifle, or basically every piece of gear I had issued during my time in was garbage. I only had qualifying rifles from the armory, but they were trash.

 

[Ggreen]

And you believe thats a improvement over a factory Colt in performance and return on investment.....9mm billet lower compared to forged just for starters......
I guarantee Colt has sold more AR rifles to the public than any other manufacture out there, they have only been selling them since 1964.
And why would you thing that the Milspec with the M16 hasn't changed since 1964?

M16s have Knights quad rails, ambi safeties, improved bolt carriers, better barrels, the spec may not change but the configuration and outfitting do. The only thing mil spec keeps in check is dimensional compatability so they can put FN uppers on colt lowers, or whomever wins the next contract.

I doubt colt has sold more civilian ar15s than anyone else. Anderson and Palmetto have been outpacing colt 40 to 1 for the last 5 years or more. Palmetto has their own forge for goodness sake.

 

[Nickbau5]

And you believe thats a improvement over a factory Colt in performance and return on investment..... billet upper/lower compared to forged just for starters......
Whats next your red dot will take a better beating than the Marines ACOG?
I guarantee Colt has sold more AR/M16 rifles to the public/Uncle Sam than any other manufacture out there, they have only been selling them since 1964.
And why would you thing that the Milspec with the M16 hasn't changed since 1964?

I think its interesting that some folks believe they can build a better preforming firearm with unknown specs with a visa card off the internet than a manufacture that has been doing it for better than 56 years.

You Millennial's make me laugh...
You still haven't posted the build specs of your two AR's???? You post that yours are better than that cheap Milspec...
Show us...

Oh wow, I can't bring up the exact schematics of the parts to the exact decimal of an in, buess all my arguments are bunk because the argument has shifted into "I know the measurements of my gun, so that makes me know all, you don't know measurements so you must be a dumb millennial", I guess name calling is on the table for you then.

Also, "return on investment", you are a scourge on the gun community, not in it for the joy of ownership, but instead looking at dollar in/dollar out. I'd never sell my babies, they'd be the thing's I'd starve to keep, but I guess I'm just some no brain millennial that doesn't want to support a failing company that's been falling for the last decade, and even put out a statement that they just aren't selling enough rifles. But I guess the fact that all the measurements are out there, that automatically makes all other products inferior, since they make their own products and aren't tied to 8lb trigger weights. But no, keep on blaming millennials for "killing the gun industry" because we don't buy overpriced products trying to hinge on the memory of our youth, the same type of marketing Colt relies on.

If Colt went out of business tomorrow, the only thing that would change are people who only see dollar signs jacking up pony marked lowers to double the price, and nothing else, and I guess the nostalgic crowd crying how it's the young generation's fault and not the company who failed to adapt to a market where they aren't the only player in the game. Companies that fail to adapt for changes in an age where you can buy parts individually and make a better performing product are bound for failure, especially when they try to charge premiums for the symbol.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Oh wow, I can't bring up the exact schematics of the parts to the exact decimal of an in, buess all my arguments are bunk because the argument has shifted into "I know the measurements of my gun, so that makes me know all, you don't know measurements so you must be a dumb millennial", I guess name calling is on the table for you then.

Also, "return on investment", you are a scourge on the gun community, not in it for the joy of ownership, but instead looking at dollar in/dollar out. I'd never sell my babies, they'd be the thing's I'd starve to keep, but I guess I'm just some no brain millennial that doesn't want to support a failing company that's been falling for the last decade, and even put out a statement that they just aren't selling enough rifles. But I guess the fact that all the measurements are out there, that automatically makes all other products inferior, since they make their own products and aren't tied to 8lb trigger weights. But no, keep on blaming millennials for "killing the gun industry" because we don't buy overpriced products trying to hinge on the memory of our youth, the same type of marketing Colt relies on.

If Colt went out of business tomorrow, the only thing that would change are people who only see dollar signs jacking up pony marked lowers to double the price, and nothing else, and I guess the nostalgic crowd crying how it's the young generation's fault and not the company who failed to adapt to a market where they aren't the only player in the game. Companies that fail to adapt for changes in an age where you can buy parts individually and make a better performing product are bound for failure, especially when they try to charge premiums for the symbol.

Too funny, Lots of worthless Strawmen in your posts... I didn't think you knew what specs your rifles were...
The discussion hasn't changed at all on my end, you posted MilSpec is junk...
And you still haven't proved it with any facts, just your own opinion, strawmen and nothing more.
Like I posted earlier, I guess I overpaid three years ago when I bought two 6920's for 650 bucks a piece....

 

[Nickbau5]

You spent $650 in the time where PSA, using the exact same specs, was charging $450-500, you paid a near $200 premium for a horse, when you said that milspec was all the same. And I quite literally said that milspec is an 8lb trigger, that is a bad trigger, no ifs/ands/ors/buts, 8lb is not a good trigger weight, when you compare it to triggers that have much lower weights, less creep and a better reset, but just because I don't know the schematics, they aren't better than 8lbs. In the end, I don't need to know the exact dimensions of my parts to know they work better than milspec, you can know they're better through use, you can tell a 2.5lb trigger is better than an 8lb trigger, you can tell a silent capture spring is better than a milspec buffer, you can feel a difference in comfort from a B5 grip and an A2 grip with the annoying nub. You are claiming that milspec is great, while I'm stating that there are much better options and paying colt prices for milspec is dumb. My argument from the start has been "Milspec is bad when compared to newer and better parts, like triggers, buffers, grips, and stocks", things that are noticeably different and improve the shooting experience.

 

[Nickbau5]

In the end, neither of us will change our opinions, because I believe that new products coming in the market outclass milspec by leagues, and you think the opposite, that Milspec is the only thing you need and anything more isn't really worth it. I don't think Colt is worth the premium people pay for it, and you think that they are.

I will cede a single nudge that the only colts that are worth me adding to my collection are "gov marked" surplus, like ones from police agencies and such, but those are the only ones I would ever consider buying, since new production Colt isn't what I want and I can build a rifle to what I want the first time, instead of buying a full rifle and then swapping parts, buy once/cry once.

 

[churchmouse]

Guess you guys stayed up late "Discussing" the merits involved.

Tombs.....I build all of my AR's these days. I gave up on buying one that I actually liked and that came out of the box without some sort of issues or another. Mostly because I am one critical S.O.B. when it comes to my guns hence every one of them in my safe is either highly modified or scratch built from "Good" aftermarket pieces.
Call me a Gee-Whizzer if you like. I put the bits and pieces together that suit my needs/desires. I put the colors I like on them. I put the 1911 grip adaptors on them so everything I pick up feels pretty much the same. I like them that way. Its a passion with me. And every one of them can and does take a beating when I do get the time to run them. They get ran. If the screw up they get fixed. Yup I had a couple right off the bench that were not happy but none of them goes into a trusted position until they get ran. I have a process.

I have no idea how anybody that has built 2 Frankenguns can tell me/us about quality. And I do consider mine to be Frankenguns because they came out of my mind.

I will say the 1st AR I ever owned was a Colt and it was a stellar piece for that time in my life. Pre-Billery and as built no mods. I do miss that rifle.

 

[KJQ6945]

This has been a very comical read.

 

[Ggreen]

Too funny, Lots of worthless Strawmen in your posts... I didn't think you knew what specs your rifles were...
The discussion hasn't changed at all on my end, you posted MilSpec is junk...
And you still haven't proved it with any facts, just your own opinion, strawmen and nothing more.
Like I posted earlier, I guess I overpaid three years ago when I bought two 6920's for 650 bucks a piece....

650 was the only time a 6920 was selling for what it's worth. I saw one for 1500 the other day and some sucker is going to buy it. You can get into a mk12 for that, close to a Mk18. Which are both battle proven better guns than the base m4, since that seems to matter

 

[Clay Pigeon]

This has been a very comical read.

It really has, I learned on INGO that unspeced parts guns with billet uppers and lowers are superior to the Milspec rifles that Colt and FN supply to the citizens and US Armed Services.
With the POS that are issued to both of my sons I should find it amazing that both of them shoot in the high 330's to low 340's each time they qualify..
I would love to see some of these parts guns shoot at 500 and see how well they do.

 

[ECS686]

I'm reading and all of the sudden I'm wondering where all the AR build oarties went! LOL

 

[Ggreen]

I would love to see some of these parts guns shoot at 500 and see how well they do.

Go to any high power match in the country and see how built guns shoot.

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

ITT I learned that not slobbing the Colt knob is akin to telling someone their wife is fat. They'll never agree and likely want to fight you but when they're alone with it, and honest with themselves, they likely agree.