Clearing a failure to eject

[EliteCageFighting]

I've dealt with this in the military with a rifle, but I'm still very new to handguns. It has not happened yet, but what can I expect? What is the best approach to this? What should I look for when it happens? Anything else you can think of?

Thanks in advance.


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[kludge]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug&feature=related[/ame]

Everyone should have a bunch of dummy round to parctice this stuff on the range.

 

[Rookie]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/handguns/10478-1000_round_glock_torture_test.html

One thing that impressed me about this video is that, when the gun failed to cycle properly, he didn't just stand there and rack the slide. If you watch, he racked the slide as he was stepping to the side. This is a good thing to practice because you are presenting a moving target which is harder to hit than a static target...

 

[Crystalship1]

YouTube - Pistol Malfunction Clearance

Everyone should have a bunch of dummy round to parctice this stuff on the range.

Exactly!!! Have a buddy load your mags. for you and slip in a couple of snap-caps in different places (sometimes including 2 in a row) and then practice that "tap, rack, & press" drill!!!

 

[CandRFan]

Exactly!!! Have a buddy load your mags. for you and slip in a couple of snap-caps in different places (sometimes including 2 in a row) and then practice that "tap, rack, & press" drill!!!

+1 on the snap caps. Snap caps are helpful to me because I can see if I'm flinching, anticipating, or anything like that when I'm shooting.

 

[rhino]

Failure to eject or failure to extract?

The former could result in a jam (which you can't fix without tools). The latter is a malfunction that can be addressed like a "double feed" and in fact many apparent double feeds are actually failures to extract.

Here's is how I was taught to do and how I teach others:

1. Lock slide to rear (if you can).
2. Strip magazine; dispose of it (at least temporarily) if you have another, because it is probably the cause of a double feed (if you had one, but not so much a failure to extract).
3. Rack the slide vigrously 2-4 times, letting it fall forward without slowing it down (you need to make sure the extractor gets around the rim of the case in the chamber).
4. Reload (preferably with a fresh magazine) and continue your activities.

 

[Vigilant]

Failure to eject or failure to extract?

The former could result in a jam (which you can't fix without tools). The latter is a malfunction that can be addressed like a "double feed" and in fact many apparent double feeds are actually failures to extract.

Here's is how I was taught to do and how I teach others:

1. Lock slide to rear (if you can).
2. Strip magazine; dispose of it (at least temporarily) if you have another, because it is probably the cause of a double feed (if you had one, but not so much a failure to extract).
3. Rack the slide vigrously 2-4 times, letting it fall forward without slowing it down (you need to make sure the extractor gets around the rim of the case in the chamber). JMHO
4. Reload (preferably with a fresh magazine) and continue your activities.

In what instance do you teach this? While this action would be just fine in a range/target practice setting, it isn't realistic for real life, or any sort of dynamic fighting class. If a couple of TRB's or a TRB, and mag change don't work while moving, it's time, or past time, to transition to a BUG and/or get the hell outta dodge.

 

[Wabatuckian]

I'll add to what Rhino said a bit.

The old way of clearing a stovepipe was to wipe the slide with your hand, contacting the stovepipe and clearing it.

I used to use this method, until I got a stovepipe that was facing forward. Reacting, I wiped it and cut the hell out of my hand. I now use the method demonstrated above.

As well, on a double feed, I have bent magazine feed lips clearing them. I discard the mag that was involved in the double feed - to me, it's not worth it to get it mixed up with the good, spare mag. Maybe not the prescribed way, but it's what works.

When practicing/training, I expect to tear up a couple, few mags, so I try to keep some cheap ones on hand, USA, Triple K, whatever I can get for cheap. (They have the added benefit of inducing malfunctions unexpectedly).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Josh <><

 

[Wabatuckian]

In what instance do you teach this? While this action would be just fine in a range/target practice setting, it isn't realistic for real life, or any sort of dynamic fighting class. If a couple of TRB's or a TRB, and mag change don't work while moving, it's time, or past time, to transition to a BUG and/or get the hell outta dodge.

... that's a standard fix for a double feed.

Getting "the hell outta Dodge" should be your first move. Escape ASAP - you don't want to shoot the bastard, no matter how deserving he may be of it.

Strip the old mag out, let it fall where it will (my lil' addition due to the probability of bent feed lips), reload with fresh.

Given that many people don't carry a backup, and an exit would have been taken already, if possible, what's your solution?

No backup and no exit, remember.

 

[Vigilant]

... that's a standard fix for a double feed.

Getting "the hell outta Dodge" should be your first move. Escape ASAP - you don't want to shoot the bastard, no matter how deserving he may be of it.

Strip the old mag out, let it fall where it will (my lil' addition due to the probability of bent feed lips), reload with fresh.

Given that many people don't carry a backup, and an exit would have been taken already, if possible, what's your solution?

No backup and no exit, remember.

Locking the slide back is a fine motor skill that probably will not be available, as well as the time to rack several times. Correct, moving is first, TRB while moving, if that has failed, mag change, charge, continue. Personally, I do carry a bug, so if TRB fails, transition. YMMV

 

[Wabatuckian]

Notice I left the "lock the slide back" part out. Grab the mag and YANK. This is what leads to bent feed lips.

However, being a lefty, locking the slide on a 1911 or Beretta/Taurus 92 is a gross motor skill for me (just bring the finger up and contact). I just choose not to do it this way for the sake of simplicity.

No offense toward you intended, but I do wonder if a lot of folks who make up these drills have actually had to use their sidearms. I'm not talking about the instructor in the video above; he's documented. I am talking about a lot of folks on gun forums, and some of the lesser known schools. (And I will not count military service - even though I respect soldiers greatly - as the ability to teach civilian self defense shooting. Those are two totally different missions that usually utilize totally different weapons - why use a handgun when you have a rifle? I would take a carbine class off of a military authorized instructor.)

Josh <><

 

[Mike Elzinga]

I'll take the oppertunity to back up Rhino. He teaches what he preaches. I have seen him do this very set of techniques within the confines of a match, which is as close as you will get to a gunfight without dodging bullets. I also count "dynamic fighting classes" the same as a match as they both have the same consequences for failure. The short answer is that outside of his method, their isnt a quick fix. If a gun is locked up in the midst of a gunfight you can either take the time to clear it using the "Rhino Method" or you can throw it at your attacker because it is no longer worth ****. I agree that fine motor skills quickly go out the window but its either that or throw your ass out the window.

btw~ I highly doubt that anyone here has taken more "dynamic fighting classes" than Rhino, and he paid for them all out of pocket.

 

[Tinman]

Well, I’ll throw my 2 cents out there too.

First, if you carry a BUG, your only malfunction drill should be dump and go to gun number two. Nothing you can do to gun number one will be as reliable a fix as that action. The problem is that you will notice very few people actually carry a BUG. Some folks it’s just hard enough to get them to carry a primary.

In lieu of carrying a BUG, you have to have some method to turn the malfunctioned turd in your hands into a functioning bang stick as fast as possible. Obviously, anything you do is going to take time. If you don’t have that time due to lack of cover, incoming rounds, close proximity to the threat, anything else, your best bet is probably the Nike defense. If that’s not an option, well you may have met an unsurvivable problem hope you have some good hands on skills, or knife work.

I elaborated a bit more on the situational stuff even though that wasn’t the crux of the initial question because things seemed to be drifting more into the context of using the technique verse the actual technique.

I did want to take a paragraph or two and comment on the “fine motor skill” point raised earlier. Pressing and resetting the trigger properly is a fine motor skill, aligning the sights is a fine motor skill, finding and depressing the magazine release for most handguns is a fine motor skill and yet we all train and feel we could execute these skills with some level of proficiency under stress. Why is it then that we feel certain skills are just to in depth to accomplish under stress? Mainly it’s because we don’t want to dedicate the proper time and effort to committing these skills to “muscle memory”. All around us everyday people are performing extremely fine motor skills under unbelievable stress with staggering efficiency. The difference is that these skills to those people are so well practiced that they do not have to consciously execute them, therefore they become automatic in a crisis situation.

Here’s what I teach, and use myself for stoppage clearance. It mimics what Rhino has already posted, as well as what about a thousand other trainers are teaching these days

Immediate Action
This is a non-diagnostic procedure designed to solve 80% to 90% of the different malfunctions that can occur with the pistol. Any time the pistol fails to go bang when you pull the trigger, immediately execute this procedure. Do not attempt to diagnose the problem and skip steps. This will only waste valuable time and potentially misdiagnose the problem at a crucial moment. The first thing to do is get your finger off the trigger. Next, ensure the safety is disengaged (this is a suprizingly common problem). While ensuring the safety is disengaged, tap the magazine with the support hand ensuring it is correctly seated. Briskly rack the slide while rolling the pistol to the ejection port side. Circle the support side hand behind and under the pistol to reacquire the firing grip and continue as appropriate.

Extended Stoppage
In the case of a true double feed malfunction, the immediate action procedure will not successfully clear the problem. Once we have completed the immediate action drill and still have a problem, we need to complete an extended procedure to get the pistol back up and running. Your finger should already be off the trigger. We first need to relieve the recoil spring tension on the bullet. Using the support hand retract the slide, and lock it open. Depress the magazine release, and with the support hand pull the magazine out. As double feeds are often caused by the magazine, it is best to discard this magazine. Using the support hand, briskly work the slide three times. Finally, reload, reacquire the firing grip, and proceed as appropriate.

Once again, all of this depends on having time, and or proper cover to execute. I’m often asked how do I know when to execute the extended stoppage? It’s really quite simple, your default response should be the immediate action drill, if it doesn’t work, you continue right on to the extended stoppage portion. This means it’s really just one long malfunction drill with a check in the middle to see if you need to continue.

Last thing, on the issue of leaving out the lock step in the extended stoppage and just ripping out the magazine. There is a reason for it to be there. Often, on the range we manually setup the double feed malfunction, by riding the slide forward we do not allow the two rounds to attempt to enter the chamber with the same force as a mechanically initiated double feed. As such, very often you can just simply tug on the magazine and it pulls out. Unfortunately, when the malfunction is mechanically driven into the chamber with the full force of the recoil spring, you often can’t just rip the magazine until you get the slide pressure off that top round. Additionally, on many concealed carry guns with a flat bottom magazine in place you won't get a good enough purchase on the mag to pull it out. It goes back to that theory of having a robust procedure that works 99% of the time verses saving 0.5 seconds removing a step and lowering the success percentages to maybe 50%. By the way, the 50% of the time that the procedure without the extra step doesn’t work it just cost you an extra 1.5 seconds. I usually choose to default to the more robust procedure rather than the fastest but doesn’t always work process.

Now the big caveat. I can’t say it’s never happened, but I can recall no story of anyone in an actual fight on the street having a malfunction, clearing it, and winning the fight. I have heard of folks transitioning to a secondary weapon and winning though. If anyone has any stories, please send them my way.

As always, my opinions and experience, your’s may be different.

Tinman….

 

[SirRealism]

Failure to eject or failure to extract?

The former could result in a jam (which you can't fix without tools). The latter is a malfunction that can be addressed like a "double feed" and in fact many apparent double feeds are actually failures to extract.

Here's is how I was taught to do and how I teach others:

1. Lock slide to rear (if you can).
2. Strip magazine; dispose of it (at least temporarily) if you have another, because it is probably the cause of a double feed (if you had one, but not so much a failure to extract).
3. Rack the slide vigorously 2-4 times, letting it fall forward without slowing it down (you need to make sure the extractor gets around the rim of the case in the chamber).
4. Reload (preferably with a fresh magazine) and continue your activities.

That's something that some instructors sometimes fail to explain. I've been practicing with snap caps a lot lately, and that was the thing I kept missing. The slide wasn't going back forward with enough force to engage the extractor and get the round out.

 

[kludge]

That's something that some instructors sometimes fail to explain.

I always try to explain this, and it is for some reason I haven't figured out yet, difficult for new shooters to either a. comprehend, b. perform, or c. allow themselves to do. (BTW, almost all my students are new shooters, almost all of them ride the slide). It's like they've formed a bad habit without ever shooting a gun before... like they are going to hurt the gun or something.



Question for those in the know...

How common an occurance is a double feed?

Never had one myself that wasn't self-induced (except in a 22 rimfire).

 

[SirRealism]

I always try to explain this, and it is for some reason I haven't figured out yet, difficult for new shooters to either a. comprehend, b. perform, or c. allow themselves to do. (BTW, almost all my students are new shooters, almost all of them ride the slide). It's like they've formed a bad habit without ever shooting a gun before... like they are going to hurt the gun or something.

It's probably because racking multiple times is so different from doing it once.

 

[kludge]

It's probably because racking multiple times is so different from doing it once.

No, I mean even when they only rack the slide once.

 

[SirRealism]

Yeah, it's a bit overwhelming if the student is completely new to guns. Past about 35 yrs old, there are only so many new things one can learn in one day. It's pretty cool, though, when it finally clicks and then becomes habit.

I just took the NRA basic pistol class a few weeks ago, and I recall seeing the other guys (and women) there who'd never fired a gun, and they were definitely overwhelmed. I was a little more comfortable because I had owned my gun for 5 yrs.

I'm so glad I took the course, though. I learned a lot.

 

[rhino]

In what instance do you teach this? While this action would be just fine in a range/target practice setting, it isn't realistic for real life, or any sort of dynamic fighting class. If a couple of TRB's or a TRB, and mag change don't work while moving, it's time, or past time, to transition to a BUG and/or get the hell outta dodge.

First of all, thank you for your interest in my contribution.

Addressing your question, my response was a direct answer to the question. Tinman's response may shed some light on that for you. The original poster asked how to fix a problem and I answered.

You're adding the context of "real life" and a "dynamic fighting" class. What one does or does not do "in real life" is going to depend on more facts than a one-size-fits-all response. Obviously fixing a double feed/failure to extract takes more time than a simpler malfunction. It also may be the only choice someone has between a club and a functional weapon. Furthermore, no one stated nor implied that one should stand still and await imminent death while doing this. If you're not shooting, you should be moving or remaining behind available cover (or both).

If you could have gotten "the hell out of dodge," you should have done so before or while your gun was malfunctioning. If you have a back-up gun, why bother with tap-rack-bang? Why not just transition any time you don't get the desired result? You know the answers to these rhetorical questions.

When the question arises, "What do I do if I'm trying to save my own life and my gun pukes," perhaps my answer will be more to your satisfaction.

As far as "dynamic fighting class," goes, I have no idea how you define that phrase. I can, however, name multiple well-known instructors who are respected by their peers who teach malfunction clearances pretty much the same why I do. I didn't "invent" anything or even find a clever new way to share the information. I'm just passing to others what I've learned and what I think is the best way.

Finally, I'll add that I find it ironic and humorous that someone is telling me that I need to go to a back-up gun or that I should advocate doing so. Anyone who knows me might also find the humor in that.

 

[rhino]

That's something that some instructors sometimes fail to explain. I've been practicing with snap caps a lot lately, and that was the thing I kept missing. The slide wasn't going back forward with enough force to engage the extractor and get the round out.

I'm all about explaining things and I'm a helper.