Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[historian]

For me, I wouldn't view attendance as participating in (or endorsing) the union.

Well, when the pastor asks if anyone objects to the union, there could be some awkwardness....

But joking aside, I was livid at Begg for saying this and doubling down. I want to know which grandkid is gay. He preached one of the best sermons I ever heard (the man in the middle).

But as for marriage, I would hold the same for adultery and remarriage. Marriage is also a representation of Christ and His church. I would feel obligated to object and not add myself as a witness to the event. Avoiding endorsing sin at all costs is a generally good principle. This is one of those areas where "being loving" is actually bad and "loving the sinner" is actively encouraging this sin. Does it suck in your family, yes, it does. My aunt has a lovely wife. My grandmother's third husband is someone I love dearly. This doesn't mean that their marriages are valid.

 

[ditcherman]

Well, when the pastor asks if anyone objects to the union, there could be some awkwardness....

But joking aside, I was livid at Begg for saying this and doubling down. I want to know which grandkid is gay. He preached one of the best sermons I ever heard (the man in the middle).

But as for marriage, I would hold the same for adultery and remarriage. Marriage is also a representation of Christ and His church. I would feel obligated to object and not add myself as a witness to the event. Avoiding endorsing sin at all costs is a generally good principle. This is one of those areas where "being loving" is actually bad and "loving the sinner" is actively encouraging this sin. Does it suck in your family, yes, it does. My aunt has a lovely wife. My grandmother's third husband is someone I love dearly. This doesn't mean that their marriages are valid.

How does “being loving” and “loving the sinner” actively encourage the sin?

You hint that adultery/remarriage should be treated similarly, but I bet everyone here would go to a second marriage without too much thought.

 

[chipbennett]

Well, when the pastor asks if anyone objects to the union, there could be some awkwardness....

But joking aside, I was livid at Begg for saying this and doubling down. I want to know which grandkid is gay. He preached one of the best sermons I ever heard (the man in the middle).

But as for marriage, I would hold the same for adultery and remarriage. Marriage is also a representation of Christ and His church. I would feel obligated to object and not add myself as a witness to the event. Avoiding endorsing sin at all costs is a generally good principle. This is one of those areas where "being loving" is actually bad and "loving the sinner" is actively encouraging this sin. Does it suck in your family, yes, it does. My aunt has a lovely wife. My grandmother's third husband is someone I love dearly. This doesn't mean that their marriages are valid.

I am doing my best to emulate what Jesus did in his ministry. In his time and culture, the very act of eating with "tax collectors and sinners (prostitutes)" was viewed as condoning/endorsing the lifestyles of those with whom He ate. And yet He found a way to reach them, to show them His love, while also not condoning their sin.

I understand and readily accept that there are differing viewpoints, differing beliefs, and differing promptings of conscience. I'm not attempting to argue that my position is better, more correct, etc. So, I won't get into the weeds on that. We all must follow the counsel of the Holy Spirit on these matters.

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.

 

[historian]

How does “being loving” and “loving the sinner” actively encourage the sin?

You hint that adultery/remarriage should be treated similarly, but I bet everyone here would go to a second marriage without too much thought.

And that is to the eternal shame of the church. The church should take marriage seriously but become lax so we don't offend sinners. Jesus offended sinners and called them to repentance. We gave up Law and focused on the Gospel because we want people to feel good about their sins.

When you go to a remarriage, you are endorsing adultery. Period. Full Stop.

 

[Cameramonkey]

And that is to the eternal shame of the church. The church should take marriage seriously but become lax so we don't offend sinners. Jesus offended sinners and called them to repentance. We gave up Law and focused on the Gospel because we want people to feel good about their sins.

When you go to a remarriage, you are endorsing adultery. Period. Full Stop.

So you are saying my wife (and me too?) is an adulterer because her ex husband cheated on her, then divorced her?

(and then she married me)

 

[DadSmith]

I disagree with him on one point, but it's the point. However, I understand where he is coming from.

Don't cut them off. Make sure you tell them you love them and want to spend time with them. Interact. Get to know the partner. Don't go to the wedding.

Marriage is a very specific, biblically defined thing. I cannot endorse this by my presence.

This right here.

Does God approve of such weddings?
If he doesn't should Christians?

 

[chipbennett]

This right here.

Does God approve of such weddings?
If he doesn't should Christians?

If attending such a wedding is, in your conscience, equal to approving the wedding then you absolutely should not attend the wedding.

 

[DadSmith]

If attending such a wedding is, in your conscience, equal to approving the wedding then you absolutely should not attend the wedding.

Does God approve of such weddings?

 

[chipbennett]

Does God approve of such weddings?

No one here, as far as I can tell, is arguing that God approves of such weddings. So, I return to the point I just made: if, in your conscience, attending such a wedding is equivalent to approving such a wedding, then you absolutely should not attend.

It is not inherently true, however, that attending such a wedding is, in fact, equivalent to approving such a wedding. It is a matter of conscience.

 

[historian]

So you are saying my wife (and me too?) is an adulterer because her ex husband cheated on her, then divorced her?

(and then she married me)

Not me, Jesus.

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 

[chipbennett]

Not me, Jesus.

Er, you're skipping over this part:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

"Fornication" translates as "sexual immorality".

 

[blain]

No one here, as far as I can tell, is arguing that God approves of such weddings. So, I return to the point I just made: if, in your conscience, attending such a wedding is equivalent to approving such a wedding, then you absolutely should not attend.

You would probably tell me it's okay if I eat food that had been offered to idols, too.

 

[DadSmith]

It is not inherently true, however, that attending such a wedding is, in fact, equivalent to approving such a wedding. It is a matter of conscience.

I disagree. It definitely stamps your approval on it by attending. It isn't a matter of conscience.
It's celebrating a sinful event/act.
Attendance at a wedding ceremony is generally understood to signify one’s support of and commitment to the union that is being established.
You can maintain a good relationship with those individuals, but they should understand your position on such things.
Like any sin it should not be supported or approved of.

 

[chipbennett]

You would probably tell me it's okay if I eat food that had been offered to idols, too.

I wouldn't tell you that. I'd follow Paul's advice/approach in I Cor. 8.

 

[chipbennett]

I disagree. It definitely stamps your approval on it by attending. It isn't a matter of conscience.
It's celebrating a sinful event/act.
Attendance at a wedding ceremony is generally understood to signify one’s support of and commitment to the union that is being established.
You can maintain a good relationship with those individuals, but they should understand your position on such things.
Like any sin it should not be supported or approved of.

You are describing what is true for your conscience. You are not describing anything that has specific, doctrinal guidance.

Again: to the Pharisees of His day, the very act of Jesus eating with tax collectors and sinners (prostitutes) similarly constituted His "stamp of approval" on their behaviors/actions/lifestyles. And yet, Jesus ate with them.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I disagree. It definitely stamps your approval on it by attending. It isn't a matter of conscience.
It's celebrating a sinful event/act.
Attendance at a wedding ceremony is generally understood to signify one’s support of and commitment to the union that is being established.
You can maintain a good relationship with those individuals, but they should understand your position on such things.
Like any sin it should not be supported or approved of.

This.

You are going to the wedding for one of two reasons.
To celebrate their union.
To be the one that stands up and speaks out when the preacher asks for any dissent.

Not me, Jesus.

So you are saying if a husband beats his wife, she has a choice of 50 years of beatings or hell. doesnt sound very Christ like to me.

 

[DragonGunner]

You would probably tell me it's okay if I eat food that had been offered to idols, too.

Paul would. Unless a brother was around to be offended because he believed in idols and false gods. Then for the sake of the weaker brother don’t.

 

[DragonGunner]

Not me, Jesus.

I attended a church with this belief. In the Old Testament adultery could be punished with death, thus freeing the other to marry again. In this church since that’s not allowed, remarriage was a sin. If your spouse cheated on you and married another you have to remain single rest of your life.

I saw their scriptures and at the time thought this to be true. But then the Comforter led me into better interpretation of the scriptures. I was wrong, the pastor was wrong, that church was wrong. It is a self righteous spirit lacking basic study skills. I hope in time and study the light will come to you as it did me.

 

[chipbennett]

This.

You are going to the wedding for one of two reasons.
To celebrate their union.
To be the one that stands up and speaks out when the preacher asks for any dissent.

Where is this described/clarified in scripture? Absent doctrine, it remains a matter of conscience. (And I readily accept that I may be in the minority with respect to conscience on this particular matter. So was Paul, in the acceptability of eating food sacrificed to idols.)

So you are saying if a husband beats his wife, she has a choice of 50 years of beatings or hell. doesnt sound very Christ like to me.

Divorce is sin, but it is no different from any other sin, so it does not uniquely condemn to hell.

The Bible refers to limited acceptability for divorce. The two primary ones are adultery and an unbelieving spouse who leaves. Where would domestic violence fit in here? Is that covered under the Mosaic certificate of divorce?

 

[DragonGunner]

You are describing what is true for your conscience. You are not describing anything that has specific, doctrinal guidance.

Again: to the Pharisees of His day, the very act of Jesus eating with tax collectors and sinners (prostitutes) similarly constituted His "stamp of approval" on their behaviors/actions/lifestyles. And yet, Jesus ate with them.

Have to disagree. No where can you show that Jesus approved their behavior. It never says that. All have to be around “sinners”. Back then it was the Paharisse that would not be anywhere near them in the self righteousness. Jesus talked and helped sinners, he did not approve nor did he go where they were partaking in the very act of prostitution. They knew this, and invited him because they wanted to hear from Him. They werent actively sinning and getting married to same sex couples. There was no partaking on His part in their evil deeds. They did not ask Him to come watch while they fornicated in front of him. They wanted to hear him and his views.