Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[historian]

I still don’t get it - the whole “can’t” part.
But that’s ok, not asking for more.
Just wanted to say I hope you can find what you’re looking for in your journey.

I believe God meets us where we are.

Thanks.

It is hard to articulate, but since I'm leaving the church it is disingenuous for me to continue participation. I'm walking away from the relationship for the sake of my kid's souls. God doesn't move.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Thanks.

It is hard to articulate, but since I'm leaving the church it is disingenuous for me to continue participation. I'm walking away from the relationship for the sake of my kid's souls. God doesn't move.

This is not an argumentative post, I’m genuinely confused.

If you believe that you’re leaving the place where salvation exists, then by default, won’t your kids also be missing out on salvation?

 

[Lwright]

What does a denomination have to do with a relationship with our Lord?

 

[historian]

This is not an argumentative post, I’m genuinely confused.

If you believe that you’re leaving the place where salvation exists, then by default, won’t your kids also be missing out on salvation?

Let me frame it for you this way:

My salvation has only been found in the Lutheran Church, and I believe it to be the most Biblical denomination. I do not discount that salvation can be found outside of the Lutheran church, but I think it is playing Christianity on hard mode.

My wife disagrees with fundamental Lutheran doctrine and, in many ways, has been pushing the children away from Lutheranism. This, I fear, is creating doubt in my kids' minds about Christianity.

I can go to another church, where I will not find salvation but rather damnation if that means that my children will be open to hearing the gospel and salvation. If my children then grow up to become Lutheran, even better, though I do not expect that from them.

My salvation is found in Lutheranism. Just as Foszoe will say that Jetta is a Christian and Jetta will say Foszoe is a Christian even though they disagree, I will say Baptists are Christians, but I am not if I am outside of the Lutheran faith.

 

[Lwright]

Sir, the Lord will not give up on you. Keep trusting in Him and don't give in to the enemy. Whatever church you go to, I pray that He brings you peace.

 

[JettaKnight]

I really identify with Luther. I have the same conscience he did. I think that is why I like Lutheranism. It provides real assurance of salvation. Not just the warm fuzzies, but God providing it for you in absolution and communion.

Church sucks again for me. When you would do anything to have that relationship but can't. That's what hurts. Seeing others have what you walked away from.

There's always podcast.

Or small groups - I regularly meet with one guy that left our church.

 

[foszoe]

Thanks.

It is hard to articulate, but since I'm leaving the church it is disingenuous for me to continue participation. I'm walking away from the relationship for the sake of my kid's souls. God doesn't move.

I will try being succinct.

Remember, the family is a little church.

Unless it causes friction with your wife,

Use your prayer books. Go to Lutheran services that are offered whenever the other church is not meeting.

 

[historian]

I will try being succinct.

Remember, the family is a little church.

Unless it causes friction with your wife,

Use your prayer books. Go to Lutheran services that are offered whenever the other church is not meeting.

I would like to keep going to our services but I cannot for two reasons:

1) It would cause confusion for my kids (which is why when they are grown and gone I will return)

2) Going to the services and not being an active member would be terrible for the church. You are in or out. Halfway in is Laodacian.

 

[historian]

There's always podcast.

Or small groups - I regularly meet with one guy that left our church.

I'm going to keep hanging out with our pastor when we leave. He needs someone to keep him on the straight and narrow. Plus I have a group chat with the pastor, former vicar, and current vicar (and we add the new vicar every year).

 

[JettaKnight]

https://apnews.com/article/america-...tive-beliefs-9286431a0ddde91c928e5d411795c1fe

What does it mean to claim the US is a Christian nation, and what does the Constitution say?

You really want to stir things up, huh?



I'll quickly say that I do not believe we are a de jure Christian nation, we certainly used to be a de facto Christian nation because of the strong Christian influence in our creation.

We're moving into a post Christian America - buckle buckaroo.
I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.


Is this this a bad thing? Does God need America to be Christian?
Are there other Christian nations? If not, why not?
If so, how are they faring?
What about historical Christian nations?

 

[foszoe]

You really want to stir things up, huh?



I'll quickly say that I do not believe we are a de jure Christian nation, we certainly used to be a de facto Christian nation because of the strong Christian influence in our creation.

We're moving into a post Christian America - buckle buckaroo.
I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.


Is this this a bad thing? Does God need America to be Christian?
Are there other Christian nations? If not, why not?
If so, how are they faring?
What about historical Christian nations?

Not really. The question it looked liked i was asking was really attached to the link I copied

 

[foszoe]

 

[bashMOH]

You really want to stir things up, huh?



I'll quickly say that I do not believe we are a de jure Christian nation, we certainly used to be a de facto Christian nation because of the strong Christian influence in our creation.

We're moving into a post Christian America - buckle buckaroo.
I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.


Is this this a bad thing? Does God need America to be Christian?
Are there other Christian nations? If not, why not?
If so, how are they faring?
What about historical Christian nations?

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I used to believe that persecution was always good for the church. It would help keep us firm in the faith and help spread the good news. Paul Washer has a sermon series on 1 Timothy that I'm working through and he said something that I'd never caught before

"1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior," (1 Timothy 2:1-3, ESV)

Plain as day. Pray for authority figures to leave you alone, so that you may display your godly life freely in public.

Of course God does not need American, or any nation for that matter, to be Christian. I've not thought too deeply about the whole Christian Nation movement. I'd say if you sat down both sides, they'd have a lot more in common than they think. There are some large differences, though. A good primer on the topic that I need to revisit is here:

“Just One More Thing”

The term “Christian Nationalism” exploded onto the scene in 2021. But what exactly is it? Taking our cues from the unassuming 1970s detective, Columbo, Christ Over All will ask “Just one more thing.” Through more than a dozen podcasts, and a few longform essays, we plan to interview the usual…

christoverall.com

Toward Biblical Nationhood: A Baptist View of Church and State

We aimed to lighten the mood in October by asking 'just one more question’ about the heated debate on Christian Nationalism. This month returns to <i>Christ Over All<i/>’s regularly scheduled programming of essays and articles supplemented by podcasts. We will analyze the arguments we heard...

christoverall.com

 

[45sRfun]

Let me frame it for you this way:

My salvation has only been found in the Lutheran Church, and I believe it to be the most Biblical denomination. I do not discount that salvation can be found outside of the Lutheran church, but I think it is playing Christianity on hard mode.

My wife disagrees with fundamental Lutheran doctrine and, in many ways, has been pushing the children away from Lutheranism. This, I fear, is creating doubt in my kids' minds about Christianity.

I can go to another church, where I will not find salvation but rather damnation if that means that my children will be open to hearing the gospel and salvation. If my children then grow up to become Lutheran, even better, though I do not expect that from them.

My salvation is found in Lutheranism. Just as Foszoe will say that Jetta is a Christian and Jetta will say Foszoe is a Christian even though they disagree, I will say Baptists are Christians, but I am not if I am outside of the Lutheran faith.

When I was Lutheran for 35 years I never felt that I was saved because I was Lutheran. We find our salvation in Jesus (specifically his blood shed for our sins), not in any church body. However, we are not to go it alone, but need to belong to a Christian community for mutual support and accountability. Unless one is Amish that typically means finding a congregation that suits you and attending regularly. If you can separate your knowlege of salvation from being Lutheran you might just find you can be saved at the church your wife is attending with the kids. I guess it would depend, though, if your wife is attending a Christian church or something that is way off.

 

[chipbennett]

I guess I am in the minority. I have enjoyed seeing those commercials vs the worldly stuff that fills the rest of the commercial spac3

I have no inherent problem with the "He Gets Us" commercials. No need to seek out offense where none is intended. And there's nothing wrong with the message that to follow Jesus means to wash others' feet - i.e. to be a servant.

 

[chipbennett]

Let me frame it for you this way:

My salvation has only been found in the Lutheran Church, and I believe it to be the most Biblical denomination. I do not discount that salvation can be found outside of the Lutheran church, but I think it is playing Christianity on hard mode.

My wife disagrees with fundamental Lutheran doctrine and, in many ways, has been pushing the children away from Lutheranism. This, I fear, is creating doubt in my kids' minds about Christianity.

I can go to another church, where I will not find salvation but rather damnation if that means that my children will be open to hearing the gospel and salvation. If my children then grow up to become Lutheran, even better, though I do not expect that from them.

My salvation is found in Lutheranism. Just as Foszoe will say that Jetta is a Christian and Jetta will say Foszoe is a Christian even though they disagree, I will say Baptists are Christians, but I am not if I am outside of the Lutheran faith.

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Nowhere else. Martin Luther would be aghast to think that anyone found salvation solely in his teachings.

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I Corinthians 1:10-17

 

[DragonGunner]

The Baptist say they are the way, the Catholics say they are the way, the Lutherans, Methodist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, 7 day Adventist, Quakers, Assemblies of God, Wesleyan, ……..seems all we do is separate and divide and separated again. If we really all believed in the same Christ why don’t we all just go to the same church?

Paul said you separate, you divide, I’m afraid of you.

People fall in love with ministry of the Lord, which is where they go wrong. Your suppose to fall in love with the Lord of the ministry.

The church is a gathering of believers. But we have turned it into a building, a business. A box God must fit in. And you better be in our box and believe our rules and our business.

Every organization says we are the way. Jesus said “I am the way.”

Do we really need 120 churches in one town? With another being built tomorrow? A church for the rich only, a church for the poor……and what flows from them?

 

[ChristianPatriot]

The Baptist say they are the way, the Catholics say they are the way, the Lutherans, Methodist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, 7 day Adventist, Quakers, Assemblies of God, Wesleyan, ……..seems all we do is separate and divide and separated again. If we really all believed in the same Christ why don’t we all just go to the same church?

Paul said you separate, you divide, I’m afraid of you.

People fall in love with ministry of the Lord, which is where they go wrong. Your suppose to fall in love with the Lord of the ministry.

The church is a gathering of believers. But we have turned it into a building, a business. A box God must fit in. And you better be in our box and believe our rules and our business.

Every organization says we are the way. Jesus said “I am the way.”

Do we really need 120 churches in one town? With another being built tomorrow? A church for the rich only, a church for the poor……and what flows from them?

That may have been true in the 80’s and 90’s, but I do feel like there has been some shift over the past 10-20 years.

For example, I grew going to a Christian school that was on the very conservative end of Baptists. Very much like you were saying, they were very against any other church. Just this past year, that same church with the same Pastor who had been there for nearly 30 years participated in a massive community event with all of the local churches together in one place. Something I NEVER would have seen them do when I was there attending the school.

The past 3 Baptist pastors that I’ve had have all been younger-ish and have all been very open about fellowshipping with other denominations and acknowledging that we can mostly find common ground around salvation with those brothers and sisters. Laying aside the other doctrinal issues or translation preferences.

Heck even on here, somebody said it in a post not too long ago. There’s always a big, heated discussion that goes on for three or four pages and then we all usually end up in the same ballpark realizing that we “basically” agree on a lot of things. Verbiage and practice is usually where things go haywire.

And why should a church in rural Indiana be the same as one in downtown Chicago? Different cultures and customs. Let alone say a church in China or Turkey or Australia. Some of it is definitely tribe-like division and human stubbornness, but I think we can also acknowledge that some of it is all of the different colors and shades of the body of Christ. We see the wonder and variety in nature. All of that flowed from the imagination of God. People are no different. Humans are wildly different from one another in disposition and demeanor. Heck even in my own church, we have polar opposite ends of the spectrum of conservative and liberal, and we can all come together for a common purpose to worship the same Christ.

 

[blain]

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Nowhere else. Martin Luther would be aghast to think that anyone found salvation solely in his teachings.

I believe you have some good points there.
I look back fondly on the church I attended after the Holy Spirit drew me to a point of brokenness, from which I grabbed onto Jesus, the risen Christ/Messiah.
My conversion took place in my heart without the benefit of any physical structure or gathering together of saints.
Of course various individuals in my life had sown seed in my heart, some watered.
But in the end, there was just me, a broken and humbled young man, facing the truth of a Living God and my own emptiness.

 

[JettaKnight]

The Baptist say they are the way, the Catholics say they are the way, the Lutherans, Methodist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, 7 day Adventist, Quakers, Assemblies of God, Wesleyan, ……..seems all we do is separate and divide and separated again. If we really all believed in the same Christ why don’t we all just go to the same church?

Paul said you separate, you divide, I’m afraid of you.

People fall in love with ministry of the Lord, which is where they go wrong. Your suppose to fall in love with the Lord of the ministry.

The church is a gathering of believers. But we have turned it into a building, a business. A box God must fit in. And you better be in our box and believe our rules and our business.

Every organization says we are the way. Jesus said “I am the way.”

Do we really need 120 churches in one town? With another being built tomorrow? A church for the rich only, a church for the poor……and what flows from them?

Baptist have long and rich tradition of splitting over simple things like the color of carpet or if corn flakes belong on casseroles.
Like I said, I tend to align with the SBC where local autonomy is the rule of the day.

Some of the splits are theological - Baptism, the Sabbath day, etc. Some are more mundane - drums in worship, only a piano and organ, or no instruments at all. Some are cultural and historical like Black churches. There's pros and cons of having so many denominations (I see a book on my shelf with an approximate number, but there's a cat on my lap so I can't reach it)

I live in "the city of churches" so no one in Fort Wayne can say, I haven't found a church right for me.



When someone says, "America should be a Christian nation!" The question that should arise is, "Who gets to decide what that means?" Is it mainstream liberal, Protestant evangelical, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, the Black church? All of those vastly differ on politics.