Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[ChristianPatriot]

That is an extremely depressing testimony historian.

I’m very sorry to hear you feel that way.

Curious where the thief on the cross is then? No baptism. No communion. No works. No church. And yet Christ tells him he would be with Him in Paradise.

Was Jesus lying to him? Did He make a special exemption for that one man in all of history and no one else?

You can’t simultaneously believe both. Either he’s in heaven or he isn’t. By your standards, he is not. By Christ’s standards, he is.

 

[historian]

That is an extremely depressing testimony historian.

I’m very sorry to hear you feel that way.

Curious where the thief on the cross is then? No baptism. No communion. No works. No church. And yet Christ tells him he would be with Him in Paradise.

Was Jesus lying to him? Did He make a special exemption for that one man in all of history and no one else?

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16).

The condemnation comes with unbelief, not baptism. So there are unbaptized believers, but they are generally the exception, not the rule.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

The condemnation comes with unbelief, not baptism. So there are unbaptized believers, but they are generally the exception, not the rule.

There are exceptions to salvation? I get saved one you but you get saved another way? Different rules apply to different rules apply to different people? Where is that in scripture?

 

[historian]

There are exceptions to salvation? I get saved one you but you get saved another way? Different rules apply to different rules apply to different people? Where is that in scripture?

At the risk of being Frozone, here is an article explaining the thief on the cross from an LCMS perspective:

Beckett: Holy Baptism – What About the Thief on the Cross?

The thief on the cross is the rule, not the exception.

thelutherancolumn.com

He does it better than I can.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

At the risk of being Frozone, here is an article explaining the thief on the cross from an LCMS perspective:

Beckett: Holy Baptism – What About the Thief on the Cross?

The thief on the cross is the rule, not the exception.

thelutherancolumn.com

He does it better than I can.

And what about the Old Testament?

Abraham? Noah? Moses?

“Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham BELIEVED God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[historian]

And what about the Old Testament?

Abraham? Noah? Moses?

“Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham BELIEVED God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Abraham and Moses were circumcised. Baptism has replaced that in identifying you as a believer. Like I said, I'm leaving. I'm no longer going to partake of the forgiveness. Therefore, I will not be a part of the faith. As I've said, assurance is found in the works of God done for me (baptism and communion), and as I no longer have that assurance, I no longer am in the faith.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Abraham and Moses were circumcised. Baptism has replaced that in identifying you as a believer.

You’re exactly right. It’s an identifier. Nothing else. Circumcision didn’t save them anymore than Baptism saves us.

They were saved the same way we are. Just in a different tense. They believed God would send a Savior. We believe He did.

 

[ditcherman]

A lot of backstory. Let me catch you up!

I am a born and raised Baptist. Traditional Baptist soteriology is (no offense, JK ) trash.

Basic Baptist soteriology holds the incongruent position of both "once saved, always saved," but no real assurance of salvation other than that you prayed a prayer that one time. So, how do you know you are going to heaven? You prayed the prayer and meant it. Well, if I meant it, then why do I not feel saved? This cannot stand. Also, if you prayed the prayer and meant it at the time, what happens if you fall back into sin? That is where Baptists invent weird things like backsliding and rededicating your life to Christ and alter calls and all sorts of things. I can't live in a state of no assurance of my salvation other than my works, which are like filthy rags but also somehow mean I'm saved. Traditional Baptist theology is oddly close to Catholicism without the Pope and Mary.

This led me to a more logical religion, Reformed Baptist. Reformed Baptists have at least a logical consistency. Either you are in or out; there is nothing else. If you are in, you know you are in. Well, I knew I wasn't in, so I had to be out, and there was nothing I could do to get in because Jesus hates me (He may love you, but He hates me). This sucked, but I could at least accept it. Life sucks, then you die and go to Hell, but hey, it is what it is. I still wanted to be saved, but it isn't my choice.

Then, I found Lutheranism. Lutheranism is great. It does not have assurance of salvation. Baptism saves you. Forgiveness and salvation are found in the Body and Blood of Christ at communion. The word of God, mixed with the water of Baptism and pronounced with the forgiveness of sin in communion, gives you salvation. You can abandon salvation any time you want by walking away (as I am doing). Also, if you go to heaven, it is because God chose you, but your default state is Hell, and you get that by your own choice (walking away).

Thus, I am going to Hell because I am leaving salvation.

I hope that helps; let me know if you have any other questions about it, as this was the quick, 10,000-foot overview.

Welp. I asked for it. Thank you. Maybe.

Please know I am trying to come at this in a manner as the thread title suggests “civil”, so don’t read any tone into what I say. I’m just trying to say it, ask it, and learn.

Let’s get a few things straight here - I bet you’re smarter than me, and more well read, and more thoughtful. I think I may be more faith-ful. As in faith filled. We’ll see.


Some words stick right out at me; feel, logical, know/knew.

Seems like you’re basing your ‘logic’ on a feeling. Personally I have crossed a bridge where “I prayed a prayer that one time” and have faith, not feelings, of salvation.
My day to day feeling doesn’t dictate whether I’m “still” “good enough” to “get into” heaven. **

I certainly don’t believe in once saved always saved, but that might be another tangent.
Or maybe not - how does your criticism of Baptists making up weird stuff (ok, all religions have some made made flaws and man made rules that suck and that IS another tangent!) compare with you feeling the need to take communion every - what? week? month? day? festival season? for you to maintain your salvation?
This just seems like another man made rule to me, or someone depending on their feelings. Once again, no offense.

There’s a ton to talk about concerning baptism, but I’m still supposed to be working and that could get me in trouble anyway.

I’ll just leave off here by saying I think yes, it is your choice, if you want to be saved, it doesn’t go away because you walked away from a communion service. Surely our God is bigger than that.



** I suddenly felt like Bennett Brauer from SNL

 

[historian]

Welp. I asked for it. Thank you. Maybe.

Please know I am trying to come at this in a manner as the thread title suggests “civil”, so don’t read any tone into what I say. I’m just trying to say it, ask it, and learn.

Let’s get a few things straight here - I bet you’re smarter than me, and more well read, and more thoughtful. I think I may be more faith-ful. As in faith filled. We’ll see.
/quote

I appreciate your openness here. And I agree, you have more faith than I do. It is hard to have less than me.

Some words stick right out at me; feel, logical, know/knew.

Seems like you’re basing your ‘logic’ on a feeling. Personally I have crossed a bridge where “I prayed a prayer that one time” and have faith, not feelings, of salvation.
My day to day feeling doesn’t dictate whether I’m “still” “good enough” to “get into” heaven. **
/quote

I'm glad you have assurance of salvation. My wife does as well. I do not. I don't believe I am saved due to some inner feeling. My joy in discovering Lutheran theology was that I no longer need to believe, deep down, that I am saved but that my salvation is external to me and found in baptism and communion.

I certainly don’t believe in once saved always saved, but that might be another tangent.
Or maybe not - how does your criticism of Baptists making up weird stuff (ok, all religions have some made made flaws and man made rules that suck and that IS another tangent!) compare with you feeling the need to take communion every - what? week? month? day? festival season? for you to maintain your salvation?
This just seems like another man made rule to me, or someone depending on their feelings. Once again, no offense.
/quote

At the risk of Fozoeing the conversation, here is another link to people much smarter than I am!

LCMS Document Library

Files and resources curated by The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

files.lcms.org

Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Frequently asked questions about LCMS doctrine.

www.lcms.org

There’s a ton to talk about concerning baptism, but I’m still supposed to be working and that could get me in trouble anyway.

I’ll just leave off here by saying I think yes, it is your choice, if you want to be saved, it doesn’t go away because you walked away from a communion service. Surely our God is bigger than that.



** I suddenly felt like Bennett Brauer from SNL

 

[indiucky]

I call this the "John 3 16 doesn't mean what you think it does pagan" thread...

whenever I feel like I've got a shot at getting to Kingdom I come here for some humility lol....

 

[ditcherman]

I appreciate your openness here. And I agree, you have more faith than I do. It is hard to have less than me.



I'm glad you have assurance of salvation. My wife does as well. I do not. I don't believe I am saved due to some inner feeling. My joy in discovering Lutheran theology was that I no longer need to believe, deep down, that I am saved but that my salvation is external to me and found in baptism and communion.



At the risk of Fozoeing the conversation, here is another link to people much smarter than I am!

LCMS Document Library

Files and resources curated by The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

files.lcms.org

Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Frequently asked questions about LCMS doctrine.

www.lcms.org

Well we are all wired differently, our Creator made us all and He is big enough to know and understand all.
I suppose I’m wired more experientially, and you may want cold logic and facts, and IMO it’s all good in His eyes - but there I go again being all experiential!

Back to the basic question, why does leaving a certain church force you to change your beliefs?

You say you don’t have faith, but you do; in communion and baptism. Where did you get that? Someone told you so you believe it? (The scripture you quoted upthread isn’t the defining answer as it can be interpreted different ways by different people)
Where did that faith in communion come from, and why can’t you keep it with you in your journey?


When you say “I no longer need to believe … but my salvation is found …”, isn’t that “faith” in and of itself?
I believe salvation is external to me as well, “He sent his only begotten son to die for our sins”, but it’s still the essence of faith.

 

[foszoe]

Basic Baptist soteriology holds the incongruent position of both "once saved, always saved," but no real assurance of salvation other than that you prayed a prayer that one time.

I don't understand much about Baptists. I do know that when I hear that some Baptists debate whether Baptism is "necessary" for salvation, it leaves me somewhat perplexed since I know what the word itself means.

I do know most Protestants can be divided generally into 2 camps, those who believe in "once saved, always saved" and those who don't.

They mostly believe in 5 solas, one of which is sola scriptura.

Yet, they can't agree on what I would say is a foundational issue for them, soteriology. When talking to one about faith, usually one of the first questions they will ask is "Are you saved?"

For such a foundational issue, if sola scriptura is a correct doctrinal tradition, I think I would find 100% agreement on the answer to that question.

The usual defense is something along the lines of in essentials unity and allowing for diversity other matters.

Ultimately, in my experience, a conversation between different Protestant traditions quickly becomes not a Biblical discussion, which is what I would expect for sola scriptura, but a Proof text discussion. A litany of citations from one side is countered by a litany of citations from the other side and at the end both walk away feeling they have properly defended their "position" based on the Bible.

It is my opinion, that their traditions are not bible based, but sola scriptura based on a hermeneutic tradition filter.

I have laid it out several times, so only say it briefly. To properly interpret the bible, we should start with the Gospels. We should interpret the Epistles in light of the Gospels, and the OT in light of the Gospels and Epistles.

I beg you to listen to the following Podcast. It's 45 min long. If you prefer to read, there is a transcript on that page and I am going to put a lengthy quote from it below. I tried to ellipses out some and bold the "more important stuff" but you know me I think its all important However, LISTEN to it. There is much to be learned from the human voice.

Jesus the Savior - The Names of Jesus | Ancient Faith Ministries

In his second episode on the Names of Jesus, Fr. Tom explores the roots and meaning of the name Jesus - God Saves. - An episode of the The Names of Jesus podcast on Ancient Faith Radio

www.ancientfaith.com

Basically, in a nutshell, You can’t begin with what you need to do to do be saved. I think it is an abomination, almost a blasphemy, even to be interested, if not obsessed, with the issue of salvation and start trying to figure out who’s saved and who’s not and telling who’s saved and who isn’t saved, and why it’s so.

But I discussed this issue, oh, countless hours with Professor Verhovskoy about salvation. What is it, how do you understand it? How does it work? ...He always called us my dears. My dears, and being a Russian, whenever he wanted to affirm something, his voice would go down. When we speak English, when we want to affirm something, our voice goes up. When you speak Russian, your voice goes down. So he would say, my dears, we must, we must, he used to say, avoid, this abominable preoccupation with salvation. My dears, we must avoid an abominable preoccupation with salvation. ...I fell off my chair and got up again, I raised my hand, and I said professor, why can you say such a thing? Isn’t it all about salvation? Isn’t Jesus our Savior? Doesn’t he save the world? Isn’t salvation what it’s all about? And he kind of looked and smiled and said, “of course.” Of course. But what I would like to say is this. There are many Christians who are hardly interested in God at all. They’re really not interested in Christ. They’re not interested in life. They’re not interested in the beauty of creation. They’re not interested in their fellow man and their neighbor. They’re not really interested in just about anything except salvation. Translated, meaning: how to get to go to heaven when you die.

Because a lot of Christians think of salvation meaning, are you saved means: do you get to go to heaven? And so, Christians will go around saying, are you saved? And then they’ll even claim that to say “I’m saved” means I know for sure that I have my place cut out in the age to come, and I’m certainly going to heaven and anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, and I believe, and I’m baptized, so I’ll be saved, and I’m saved by grace and not by works, and all this kind of stuff. But then they’ll start arguing about what do you need to do to be saved? Do you need to believe? Do you need only to believe? Do you need to do works too? And then what about pietistic actions? You may not need to be circumcised, I mean that might be agreed upon, but Christians might argue and say well, you got to go to church to be saved. You got to be a member of the church to be saved. Some people might even say, you got to be baptized, but that’s a spiritual reality. You don’t need to be baptized in water to be saved. And even some people who are baptized into water, they’re pretty ugly, miserable, horrible creatures, so you know, baptism doesn’t save you. And just going to church and standing there and singing hymns doesn’t save you. ... Knowing the Nicene Creed doesn’t save you. Or maybe it does save you? Maybe you got to never eat any meat, milk products, or anything on any Wednesday or Friday or you’re going to go to hell? And other people say no, that’s nonsense.

So there becomes a huge, huge debate that split Christians up into literally thousands of churches, and many of those churches are the churches that claim salvation through faith and belief in the Bible and belief in Jesus, but then they argue about how does it work? You know, there are some who will say, I must accept Jesus as my Savior or I’m not saved. There are others, I’m tempted to say of a more Calvinistic, Augustinian line who would say, oh no no, God chooses you. You don’t choose God. There’s predestination. God decides who is saved. God is sovereign. If he wants to save you, he’ll save you, and if he doesn’t, you’re going to hell. ... Then there’s a big debate about all the sacraments and do you need to have Holy Communion? It’s written in the Scripture, if you don’t eat body and drink his blood, you have no life in you. You have no eternal life in you. So some people say well, unless you’ve gone to communion, you can’t be saved. Anyone who is not baptized in water can’t be saved.

... what my professor that day wanted to tell us ... the faith is not about salvation in that sense. It’s not like figuring out “what do you got to do to be saved minimally” like do you have to go to church or don’t you? Do you have to believe in Jesus or don’t you? Do you have to participate in sacraments, or don’t you? Do you have to be in some particular church and not another or don’t you? Do you have to be in communion with the bishop of Rome who is the Pope or don’t you? And there are times when people said if you’re not in one or another particular church, you are simply not saved. You are just simply going to hell. And there’s plenty of folks around that think that we Orthodox Christians are just going to hell because our understanding of Christianity is so weird. But there are also, for the sake of full disclosure and to speak the truth in love, there are Orthodox Christians who say if you’re not a member of the Orthodox Church, you might even daresay the proper jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church, you’re also going to hell. You’re not saved. So you get salvation by association, or salvation by church membership.

Now, Professor Verhovskoy what he taught us and what is true is this: you can’t look at it that way. You can’t begin with what you need to do to do be saved. No. In fact, in that sense, it is an abomination, almost a blasphemy, even to interested, if not obsessed, with the issue of salvation and start trying to figure out who’s saved and who’s not and telling who’s saved and who isn’t saved, and why it’s so. Real authentic Christians should never, ever, ever get involved in that kind of thing. Never. That is my deepest conviction, and I’m sharing it with you now. It’s not according to Jesus. It’s not according to Christ. It’s not according to Scripture. But what is? What is? What is, is that there is God. Beautiful, marvelous, magnificent, splendid, glorious God Almighty. And his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, born of a virgin on earth, the all-holy, life-creating Spirit that proceeds from God, dwells in the Son, is breathed upon us. There’s life, there’s world, there’s reality; there is truth. There is peace. There is joy. There is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. There is God himself. And what we have to realize is that we’ve got to be interested in the God who saves us, not in salvation as such. We’ve got to be interested in loving God, not salvation. God. Life is about God. The Bible is about God. Church is about God. Sacraments are about God and being about God there about Christ, and about Christ there, about crucifixion and resurrection and glorification and humility and love and mercy and meekness. Jesus says learn from me, I am meek and lowly of heart. You will find rest for your soul.

...God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Church ( I believe he misspoke and meant Truth, foszoe). God is the Savior of all human beings, especially those who believe. So, our confession has to be that God, in Christ, has already, on the Cross, saved everyone and everything. That’s the gospel. That’s the glad tidings: that he has come for Jews and Gentiles, men and women, slave and free, whoever we are upon the earth, and even the whole earth, and even all the galaxies and the stars and the sun and the moon. God, who created all of that, is saving all of that, and he’s saving it all in Jesus Christ. And that’s what we have to be thrilled about. That’s what we have to confess. That’s what we have to live by.

...

So we are saved first of all, from. The salvation is a salvation “from”. We are saved from ignorance, from darkness, because he gives us the truth, and he is the truth, and gives us the spirit of truth. We are saved from our sins. We are saved from our madness our insanity, from our diseases, from our transgressions. We are saved from our own self, from the vain imaginations of our own heart and mind. We are saved from everything that destroys and ultimately the last enemy to be destroyed is the destroyer itself which is death. So we are saved from death. ...We’re saved from the power of the devils. It says that in I John, the reason for the epiphania, the appearance of the son of God is to deliver us from the works of the devil. So we’re saved from the works of the devil. Whatever they are, that’s what we are saved from by God.

And then we are saved for. Not only from, but “for”.We are saved for life. What makes life, life? According to the Holy Scripture, what makes life life is the glorification of God. Not trying to figure out who gets saved and who is not saved, and what you got to do to get to go to heaven and then do the minimal amount of things that you need. Professor Verhovskoy would say it would be like saying how often do I have to be with my wife? Do I have to see her every day? Can I see her every other day? Can I see her just on Sunday mornings for two hours? What do I have to do with her? What do I have to give to her so that I can be quote, unquote “in good standing” with her? That’s an abomination. That’s a blasphemy. Human beings who are created in the image and likeness of God do not act that way. In fact, we do everything to be in communion all the time, to love all the time, give everything, to share everything, to enjoy everything. That’s what it’s all about. It’s not about some kind of minimal standards or rules that if we fulfill them externally, we get to go to heaven.

And it’s very interesting that many Christians who claim to be saved by faith alone and not by works, they’re still very interested in what works you need to do to be saved. And I would even suggest let’s strike once and for all from our life this question: what do I need to do to be saved? The answer is: everything and nothing because there’s nothing I can do to be saved if God doesn’t save me. But once God saves me, then I have to do the works that he does, and that means I can never rest assured of my salvation. Oh yes, I can say and I must say the gospel of God in Jesus Christ is that we are all saved. I’m saved, you’re saved. Joseph Stalin is saved. Osama bin Laden is saved. Whoever you want to think of is saved, as far as God is concerned. And then the question is, do we accept that salvation? Do we live by that salvation?

And here the teaching of Scripture and the saints would be that nobody could claim to do it. Nobody is righteous, no, not one, even after baptism. And we’re always sinners saying God be merciful to me, a sinner. We’re always saying, I am not worthy, I am not worthy. I am not deserving. Certainly I am not deserving of the grace of the Holy Spirit, and the fire of God, and the broken body and the spilled blood of Jesus. I am not worthy of salvation. It’s a gift. But once I realize that there is that gift, then I have to take that gift, and I have to repent every time I don’t take it. ...

So once I know that I am saved by Jesus, then what I do is that I pray without ceasing. I give thanks in all circumstances. I rejoice in all things. I try to share everything I have. I try to do everything as well as I can, and I know that even if I do that, I am not deserving of salvation. And I know there’s nothing I can externally do. I could go 100 Divine Liturgies and give all my body to be burned and everything, even as St. Paul says, but if I have not the love of God in me, if I’m doing out of arrogance and pride or trying to get to go to heaven when I die, and earn my salvation, then I’m still in the hands of the devil. My life is still an abomination. I have not yet understood salvation. Why? Because I have not yet understood God. So to understand salvation and to receive salvation, you have to understand and receive and love God. We love God, not salvation. God. We love God. And therefore, we are saved for loving God, glorifying God, praising God with every breath, more than we breathe the holy fathers say. We are saved for work. We are saved for activity. We are saved for rejoicing in one another. We are saved for serving each other. We are saved for repenting, in fact. We can only repent because we’re saved, because that salvation is always available to us.

For as often as we sin, when we get up again, that very salvation once and for all accomplished on the cross by God with his son Jesus, God our Savior, and Christ our Savior, that allows me to repent. That’s one of the elements of salvation, the ability to repent daily. And the holy fathers would even say, we are saved for tears. We are saved for weeping over our sins and the sins of the world....St. Simeon the New Theologian said, we are saved so that each day we can become a fresh paradise to everyone around us, including our most horrible hated enemy. We are saved to be by grace everything that God in Christ is by nature. That’s what we’re saved for.

And so a person who knows that, that person is no longer interested or obsessed in salvation as such. They are totally devoted to God as the Savior, to Christ who is the Savior, to the eternal life to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fire into which they are baptized into which they are saved by the Savior Jesus, by his broken body and spilled blood. They’re not looking around, figuring out salvation. In fact, a saved person who is not interested paradoxically in salvation anymore at all, a saved person is not trying to figure anything out. A saved person is just praying to be illumined by God to testify to the fact that we are saved, that salvation is here, eternal life is here. Joy is here. Peace is here. God is with us. Emmanuel is Christ’s name also. God with us, that everything has been redeemed, saved, delivered, protected, purified. All the enemies have been destroyed. All of God’s enemies have withered up and are like smoke vanishing in the fire, and nothing over stands against God anymore. ...

...

There’s a wonderful story of St. Macarius of Egypt who will be celebrated this month of January in Church, who when his life was over, and he was entering into paradise. According to the story, he had one foot into paradise, he heard a voice saying, Macarius you have conquered. Actually, the voice should have said, Macarius, Christ has conquered in you, Christ is the victor. He’s the Savior. But when the voice said, Macarius, you have conquered, Macarius turned around and looked, and it was the devil. And Macarius looked at the devil, and he said to him, not yet. Until both feet are safely in, not yet. We presume nothing, while at the same time we confess that everyone and everything in all of creation has been saved by God in the blood of Jesus. It’s our task to receive that salvation and to re-receive it, take it again, and again, and again, every moment of every day with every breath to be again loving God and loving our neighbor and trying to keep the commandments.

And if we do that, then God will save us if he wishes, and he will know how. But we won’t be interested in salvation anymore. We will be interested solely in pleasing, glorifying, worshipping, and loving God, who is love, who has loved us so much that he sent his beloved Son into the world to save us and to pour his saving power and love of the Holy Spirit into us, even now while we live in this fallen and corrupted world. So every day we say to the Lord, Lord have mercy, Lord save me, Lord be with me. And then we say Lord let me be worthy of your great salvation. Lord, let me be an instrument of your salvation, your love, your truth, your reconciliation, your victory over death and the devil to every single person around me. And when I fail in that, O Lord, have mercy on me, and I know that you will. Why? Because you have saved me, and you have saved everyone and everything.

 

[ditcherman]

I don't understand much about Baptists. I do know that when I hear that some Baptists debate whether Baptism is "necessary" for salvation, it leaves me somewhat perplexed since I know what the word itself means.

I do know most Protestants can be divided generally into 2 camps, those who believe in "once saved, always saved" and those who don't.

They mostly believe in 5 solas, one of which is sola scriptura.

Yet, they can't agree on what I would say is a foundational issue for them, soteriology. When talking to one about faith, usually one of the first questions they will ask is "Are you saved?"

For such a foundational issue, if sola scriptura is a correct doctrinal tradition, I think I would find 100% agreement on the answer to that question.

The usual defense is something along the lines of in essentials unity and allowing for diversity other matters.

Ultimately, in my experience, a conversation between different Protestant traditions quickly becomes not a Biblical discussion, which is what I would expect for sola scriptura, but a Proof text discussion. A litany of citations from one side is countered by a litany of citations from the other side and at the end both walk away feeling they have properly defended their "position" based on the Bible.

It is my opinion, that their traditions are not bible based, but sola scriptura based on a hermeneutic tradition filter.

I have laid it out several times, so only say it briefly. To properly interpret the bible, we should start with the Gospels. We should interpret the Epistles in light of the Gospels, and the OT in light of the Gospels and Epistles.

I beg you to listen to the following Podcast. It's 45 min long. If you prefer to read, there is a transcript on that page and I am going to put a lengthy quote from it below. I tried to ellipses out some and bold the "more important stuff" but you know me I think its all important However, LISTEN to it. There is much to be learned from the human voice.

Jesus the Savior - The Names of Jesus | Ancient Faith Ministries

In his second episode on the Names of Jesus, Fr. Tom explores the roots and meaning of the name Jesus - God Saves. - An episode of the The Names of Jesus podcast on Ancient Faith Radio

www.ancientfaith.com

Basically, in a nutshell, You can’t begin with what you need to do to do be saved. I think it is an abomination, almost a blasphemy, even to be interested, if not obsessed, with the issue of salvation and start trying to figure out who’s saved and who’s not and telling who’s saved and who isn’t saved, and why it’s so.

You orthodoxy types shure does yues some big words.
Now maybe you know where I’m coming from. If you didn’t already, haha.

Wholeheartedly agree with you on a lot of this. The organic discovery by an individual is so much more meaningful than two people arguing over something they were told by someone they want to trust.

I have become more interested in Orthodoxy over the last few months but am still exploring it.
There seems to be a lot of interest by some very young people in it.

Appreciate this conversation.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

The organic discovery by an individual is so much more meaningful than two people arguing over something they were told by someone they want to trust.

“But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[ditcherman]

I don't understand much about Baptists. I do know that when I hear that some Baptists debate whether Baptism is "necessary" for salvation, it leaves me somewhat perplexed since I know what the word itself means.

I do know most Protestants can be divided generally into 2 camps, those who believe in "once saved, always saved" and those who don't.

They mostly believe in 5 solas, one of which is sola scriptura.

Yet, they can't agree on what I would say is a foundational issue for them, soteriology. When talking to one about faith, usually one of the first questions they will ask is "Are you saved?"

For such a foundational issue, if sola scriptura is a correct doctrinal tradition, I think I would find 100% agreement on the answer to that question.

The usual defense is something along the lines of in essentials unity and allowing for diversity other matters.

Ultimately, in my experience, a conversation between different Protestant traditions quickly becomes not a Biblical discussion, which is what I would expect for sola scriptura, but a Proof text discussion. A litany of citations from one side is countered by a litany of citations from the other side and at the end both walk away feeling they have properly defended their "position" based on the Bible.

It is my opinion, that their traditions are not bible based, but sola scriptura based on a hermeneutic tradition filter.

I have laid it out several times, so only say it briefly. To properly interpret the bible, we should start with the Gospels. We should interpret the Epistles in light of the Gospels, and the OT in light of the Gospels and Epistles.

I beg you to listen to the following Podcast. It's 45 min long. If you prefer to read, there is a transcript on that page and I am going to put a lengthy quote from it below. I tried to ellipses out some and bold the "more important stuff" but you know me I think its all important However, LISTEN to it. There is much to be learned from the human voice.

Jesus the Savior - The Names of Jesus | Ancient Faith Ministries

In his second episode on the Names of Jesus, Fr. Tom explores the roots and meaning of the name Jesus - God Saves. - An episode of the The Names of Jesus podcast on Ancient Faith Radio

www.ancientfaith.com

Basically, in a nutshell, You can’t begin with what you need to do to do be saved. I think it is an abomination, almost a blasphemy, even to be interested, if not obsessed, with the issue of salvation and start trying to figure out who’s saved and who’s not and telling who’s saved and who isn’t saved, and why it’s so.

So, I’m *trying* to listen to the podcast, but I’m on the Protestant clock over here, you know…

But the quote at the bottom, is so rich and good. Highly recommend reading that affirmation.

 

[ditcherman]

“But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Don’t disagree with this at all!

What I was thinking of when responding to foszoe’s post was more like the self righteous types, whether modern or of Biblical times, arguing and standing in judgment of others.
Exactly what foszoe was talking about being an abomination, a preoccupation with salvation.

 

[foszoe]

You orthodoxy types shure does yues some big words.
Now maybe you know where I’m coming from. If you didn’t already, haha.

Wholeheartedly agree with you on a lot of this. The organic discovery by an individual is so much more meaningful than two people arguing over something they were told by someone they want to trust.

I have become more interested in Orthodoxy over the last few months but am still exploring it.
There seems to be a lot of interest by some very young people in it.

Appreciate this conversation.

A couple of decades ago, the surprising thing was many converts were males, which was somewhat unusual. After all when we think of the sexes and church going, the usual thought is women Orthodoxy can be somewhat physically demanding. Back then it was jokingly referred to as the Marine Corps of churches.

In the last few years though, i have been surprised, pleasantly, at the number of young people coming into the church. A common theme seems to be Matthew 7:24-27. Many are looking for something that is not changing, not trying to constantly be relevant. We have baptized 3 families this year. It's actually getting crowded in there on Sundays

There also seems to be a get back to the roots movement out there. I am seeing it manifested in newfound interest in Jewish traditions for example. 30 years ago, if a sign with the word "Lent" wasn't in front of a Catholic or Orthodox parish, I took notice, now its almost commonplace.

Orthodoxy is about a relationship with Christ, not a juridical stance. I remember once being told by a pastor that being saved was like standing in front of the throne of judgement and God puts on "glasses" and sees Christ instead of me.

Protestants and Catholics share the same phronema. They talk the same language. That is why, as an Orthodox Christian, its hard to even have a conversation because sometimes even the words have different meanings. I have mostly given up trying.

I will just offer this up as what I mean by a relationship. Read John 3:29. Ask someone who you know is Christian what that scripture means. There are several good commentaries online. Read them.

Now, going back to my Orthodoxy is about a relationship, not "getting saved". This may end up as a foszoe post, historian, even though I didn't intend to .

Our day starts at sunset. So Holy Week starts on Palm Sunday at dusk. Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday night are called the Bridegroom matins services. In case you don't know, matins means morning, vespers means evening. Usually the service at dusk is vespers but Holy Week is "different" on many levels that I won't get into here.

On Sunday night the icon known as Christ the Bridegroom is processed through the church and placed on the lectern at the front. The faithful then come to venerate and kiss the icon. At that moment YOU are mystically the bride marrying your bridegroom.

Now what does Jesus pray? John 17:20-23.

What is more one then a rightful relationship than husband and wife? Matt 19:5, Eph 5:31.

In the Orthodox Church wedding service, you are crowned with crowns. These are the crowns of Martyrdom for that is what you are called to do in marriage. Sacrifice all that you are for the other. What does Christ do for us? He dies for us. In the Icon of the Bridegroom, he is crowned with his crown of thorns. He sacrifices all for YOU.

So lets go back to John 3:29.

In the Jewish tradition, after the wedding, the bride and the bridegroom are led off to the chamber. The friend of the bridegroom, the best man, stands outside. When he hears the bridegroom's voice call out. The wedding is consummated. Sure it can mean that John is happy to hear the preaching of the Lord, but there is a deeper meaning to the scripture.

When I say Orthodoxy is about a relationship with Christ, it doesn't just mean that I read my bible daily or that I read the lives and writings of the saints to encounter Christ through those who are precious in His sight. It means I seek union with Him. That is the goal, that we may be one.

That is my hearts desire, God to see me as I am and still love me enough to save me. God always comes to meet us where we are and God always knows where he wants to take us and where we will go.

John 21:15-19.

Twice Jesus asks Peter do you love (agape, love unconditionally) me? Twice Peter answers I love (philo, brotherly love) you. The third time, Jesus asks Peter do you love (philo) me? and Peter was GRIEVED and answers you know that I love (philo) you.

Jesus, in his condecension, met Peter where he was and then tells him where he will go. I think Peter was grieved not because he was asked 3 times but because, as he says, the lord knew he loved Him differently than what the Lord desired. The words above are greek but some scholars tell us it is likely Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic not greek. Now I don't know if Aramaic has 2 words for love that are distinctive like the Greek. But the sense is definitely lost in English translation.

Which do you want? A relationship or not to go to hell? The saints tell us the lowest form of spirituality is because we do not want to go to hell. If that is what it takes to get someone into a relationship with Christ then let it begin there, but may it blossom forth to so much more!

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Which do you want? A relationship or not to go to hell? The saints tell us the lowest form of spirituality is because we do not want to go to hell. If that is what it takes to get someone into a relationship with Christ then let it begin there, but may it blossom forth to so much more!

This isn’t an either/or situation.

It’s specifically BECAUSE God sent His only Son to redeem the world from eternal damnation that we should totally surrender our lives to having a relationship with Him.

“We love him, because he first loved us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[foszoe]

Not everything that mentions Jesus is good…

Matt Walsh had some good thoughts on it.

I definitely agree that not everything that mentions Jesus is good.

I thank you for posting the video for me to watch and I did watch it, twice.

I wonder how many Christians today wash feet? I wonder how many watched the video as a call to literally wash feet or a symbolic call to humility, kindness, and love of neighbor?

For the first portion, it seems the thrust is if those resources are available to be used, they could have been used better.

I submit that if American Christianity wasn't so schismatic, it should be easy to finance an ad more suitable to American Christian thought.

Overall, I don't think I heard a single thing in the video that, thinking critically, made sense to me.

Christ talked about hate. Christ said calling people names puts in danger of hell fire.

Christ talked about love. The commandments can be summed up into 2.

Since the after the institution of the Eucharist, there arose a dispute as to who among them was the greatest, a lesson in humility was needed.

The washing of feet was often the chore of the lowliest servant. Christ in his kenosis demonstrated extreme humility. The washing of feet at the Last Supper was not a one time event. It was typical in that culture to wash feet regardless of whether people followed you or not. That wasn't the point. The point was hospitality. You went into a house as a guest, your feet were washed. It didn't convey any agreement with one's teaching or require anyone to be a disciple.

We should all demonstrate humility.

The ad recalled a scriptural reference that demonstrated humility.

I felt the video glossed over the fact that he washed Judas feet. What humility in that act. How Christ reached out even to wash the feet of Judas.

During Holy Week, we take turns washing each others feet in the parish. Those people aren't my disciples. By allowing me to do it, they are recognizing the image of Christ in me through an act of humility.

In a smaller parish, the priest will wash the feet of everyone present because the priest is the icon of Christ.

 

[foszoe]

This isn’t an either/or situation.

I said the same thing in the 4th sentence of my post that you quoted.