CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[foszoe]

Well, yeah, I know where you were going with it, but that wasn't a very good example, at least not in the way you asked the questions. It doesn't require faith on my part for either question. To believe or to know either one is possible for me, without elements of faith. And I can't prove to you what is in my own mind. You'd have to have faith that I'm telling you the truth unless you observe the kind of behaviors that support what I claim. But then, that situation isn't at all analogous to spiritual faith.

Speaking of, I can have the same confident belief that my mother loved me as I do that you have faith that God exists. I can observe what you say and what you do and conclude that you have faith. But that's not the problem. The problem is, neither of us can apply that same process to prove God exists. You can't prove that God exists by your faith that he does. You can only prove you have faith.



I'm uncomfortable saying that I have trouble getting past that, because it makes it seem like a hurdle that I should be able to get past. And I don't think of it that way at all. It's like the sliding scale of belief. Circumstances can be such that you suspect something to be true, or evident enough that you believe something is true, or proof enough that you know it's true. Those are fairly objective thresholds. I think it's fine for people to accept things as true based on a religious faith, but I would call that belief, not truth. YOU may believe it's true, but I may not.

So you DID know what I was up to!

Point made

 

[Bill of Rights]

I'm best described these days as "Jewish Lite". (7th Stepper refers to herself as "Catholic Lite") In my case, that means Jewish, with 1/3 less guilt.

What it comes down to in my daily practice is that I pray to God. I do so often; I'm a bit embarrassed to say that it seldom (less often than I should, but not 'never') is just to say "Thank you"... not for anything in particular, just to express gratitude for Him being and for Him allowing me to realize it. No, I have not and will not convert to any form of Christianity. I understand that Christian theology teaches that the only way to God is by Jesus, and conveniently, when that became the case, that meant that the People as a whole, if they wanted to be looked upon favorably by God, they had to submit to the authority that the men of the church gave themselves.

I'm not speaking in terms of Christian theology when I say that there are many ways to God. I'm saying that everyone who believes and cares about it, believes their way is the (or "a") right way to get to Him. I'm saying that I'm not the guy to tell you that yours is wrong, and I'm suggesting that perhaps neither you nor anyone else this side of Heaven is more qualified than I am, unless you've been there yourself. I'm saying that just among Christians, the Baptists believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, and you can substitute Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Evangelicals, or any other splinter of Christianity into the blank where I put the word Baptists, and be wholly correct. You can't all be right (about everyone else being wrong) and if there's that much argument just among those who profess Christianity, it seems clear to me that the various religions are not here for God's benefit, they're here for mankind's at best, and for their own benefit, power, and enrichment at worst- either when they formed, now, or both.

With the deepest respect, I'm going to suggest that to be a Christian is not to hold to the tenets of dip vs. sprinkle or buttons vs. zippers or Pater Noster vs. Our Father, but rather to be Christian is to be "like Christ", or to aspire to that standard, making the attempt in spite of knowing you will fall short. I can't imagine, even with what little I know of Him, that He would get wrapped around the axle over doctrine and dogma, but rather just be the best person you can be. Strive for Godliness, for it's the journey, the effort, rather than the success that gets you to Him. Man wrote the Book; no matter how you slice it, God and/or Jesus did not sit down at the typewriter and hammer out a megabyte of information, and God didn't typeset the Gutenberg press. Even if you believe that those men who did those things were inspired, they're still men and still fallible, and God made sure they would be, so that you would never trust a book that man put together more than the heart He built and stuck in your chest.

I think God is so far above and beyond all of the minutiae of Christian vs. Muslim vs. Jewish vs. whatever, that He takes no notice of those petty details and differences at all. I know you said that your post did not apply to me before you said that if I believed on that path and practiced as I do, I was misleading people. I'm hopeful that I've dispelled that misconception.

Blessings,
Bill

I know you're of Jewish decent. I don't know if you still hold to those beliefs or have come to be a Christian. If not, then this does not apply to you. But just to parse that last sentence a little: your "way" or my "way" is certainly not the only way and all likelihood not the best way to act in accordance with God. (We're all fallen, sinful, humans). But if you're a Christian and you're attempting to lead your life in such a way to bring others to God through Christ, if you're telling them there are other ways to the Father other than through the Son, you're misleading them.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm best described these days as "Jewish Lite". (7th Stepper refers to herself as "Catholic Lite") In my case, that means Jewish, with 1/3 less guilt.

What it comes down to in my daily practice is that I pray to God. I do so often; I'm a bit embarrassed to say that it seldom (less often than I should, but not 'never') is just to say "Thank you"... not for anything in particular, just to express gratitude for Him being and for Him allowing me to realize it. No, I have not and will not convert to any form of Christianity. I understand that Christian theology teaches that the only way to God is by Jesus, and conveniently, when that became the case, that meant that the People as a whole, if they wanted to be looked upon favorably by God, they had to submit to the authority that the men of the church gave themselves.

I'm not speaking in terms of Christian theology when I say that there are many ways to God. I'm saying that everyone who believes and cares about it, believes their way is the (or "a") right way to get to Him. I'm saying that I'm not the guy to tell you that yours is wrong, and I'm suggesting that perhaps neither you nor anyone else this side of Heaven is more qualified than I am, unless you've been there yourself. I'm saying that just among Christians, the Baptists believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, and you can substitute Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Evangelicals, or any other splinter of Christianity into the blank where I put the word Baptists, and be wholly correct. You can't all be right (about everyone else being wrong) and if there's that much argument just among those who profess Christianity, it seems clear to me that the various religions are not here for God's benefit, they're here for mankind's at best, and for their own benefit, power, and enrichment at worst- either when they formed, now, or both.

With the deepest respect, I'm going to suggest that to be a Christian is not to hold to the tenets of dip vs. sprinkle or buttons vs. zippers or Pater Noster vs. Our Father, but rather to be Christian is to be "like Christ", or to aspire to that standard, making the attempt in spite of knowing you will fall short. I can't imagine, even with what little I know of Him, that He would get wrapped around the axle over doctrine and dogma, but rather just be the best person you can be. Strive for Godliness, for it's the journey, the effort, rather than the success that gets you to Him. Man wrote the Book; no matter how you slice it, God and/or Jesus did not sit down at the typewriter and hammer out a megabyte of information, and God didn't typeset the Gutenberg press. Even if you believe that those men who did those things were inspired, they're still men and still fallible, and God made sure they would be, so that you would never trust a book that man put together more than the heart He built and stuck in your chest.

I think God is so far above and beyond all of the minutiae of Christian vs. Muslim vs. Jewish vs. whatever, that He takes no notice of those petty details and differences at all. I know you said that your post did not apply to me before you said that if I believed on that path and practiced as I do, I was misleading people. I'm hopeful that I've dispelled that misconception.

Blessings,
Bill

A lot that could be unpacked here . And I'm not usually one to bang out long winded posts. But two things I would want to comment on: First, as a Christian, I don't submit to the authority of any human being to worship God. With regards to sprinkling vs. dunking, young earthier vs. old earthier, and all that -- I agree, God probably will not be waiting on us when we get to heaven and as us how old we believe the earth is.

Secondly, if the Bible is not to be trusted, then all we humans will come up with is a god or gods that we invent that we feel comfortable worshipping and we know by the various stories in the Old Testament (what us Christians call it anyway), what God thought of people that invented idols to worship. We all need to read our bibles more and pray for understanding and wisdom -- especially me!

 

[newtothis]

Uh... Praise be to Odin.

 

[Bill of Rights]

This post confused me. I'm not sure what you mean by "...I don't submit to the authority of any human being to worship God." What it seems you're answering was my discussion of believing as we were taught. As a Christian man, you believe in and practice certain rituals in certain ways. You pray as you've learned to pray. As a member of a church (I'm presuming you are, but I don't know that for fact) you follow the teachings and probably the practices of that tradition. I'm not in any way criticizing that, only stating it as the case, much as there are certain things I do and don't do, having been raised Jewish.
Addressing your second point, "...all we humans will come up with is a god or gods that we invent that we feel comfortable worshipping..." Do you mean groups like Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Methodists, Muslims, Presbyterians, and so forth?
What I said was that the Bible we see today has been influenced numerous times. They don't call a popular one the "King James Version" as a tribute or honor to James, they call it that because James had it re-written! Too, if you look at the order of the books in what you call the OT, you'll find that it's slightly different in a Hebrew Bible. Which is the one God influenced? I don't know, and I suspect you don't either. What I also said was that God did build your heart and stuck it in your chest. You know right from wrong, and you know what kind of life He wants you to live. How can any book surpass that? (The "you" in here is meant generally.)

When a person holds true to what is right, maintaining a love and respect for his God and fellow man and woman, I can't fault that. When someone uses their religion as justification to do otherwise, is it the system, the religion, that's wrong, or is it the person who does so?

Blessings,
Bill

A lot that could be unpacked here . And I'm not usually one to bang out long winded posts. But two things I would want to comment on: First, as a Christian, I don't submit to the authority of any human being to worship God. With regards to sprinkling vs. dunking, young earthier vs. old earthier, and all that -- I agree, God probably will not be waiting on us when we get to heaven and as us how old we believe the earth is.

Secondly, if the Bible is not to be trusted, then all we humans will come up with is a god or gods that we invent that we feel comfortable worshipping and we know by the various stories in the Old Testament (what us Christians call it anyway), what God thought of people that invented idols to worship. We all need to read our bibles more and pray for understanding and wisdom -- especially me!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This post confused me. I'm not sure what you mean by "...I don't submit to the authority of any human being to worship God." What it seems you're answering was my discussion of believing as we were taught. As a Christian man, you believe in and practice certain rituals in certain ways. You pray as you've learned to pray. As a member of a church (I'm presuming you are, but I don't know that for fact) you follow the teachings and probably the practices of that tradition. I'm not in any way criticizing that, only stating it as the case, much as there are certain things I do and don't do, having been raised Jewish.

That comment was based on yours (from above):

I understand that Christian theology teaches that the only way to God is by Jesus, and conveniently, when that became the case, that meant that the People as a whole, if they wanted to be looked upon favorably by God, they had to submit to the authority that the men of the church gave themselves.

I assumed you meant by that to pray to God, I had to submit to some earthly authority. I don't. I do not need an intermediary, person to pray to God through the atoning power of Jesus Christ. You don't believe Jesus is the messiah. If I'm mistaken and you're saying I have to submit to Jesus' authority, well--I'll agree to that.

Addressing your second point, "...all we humans will come up with is a god or gods that we invent that we feel comfortable worshipping..." Do you mean groups like Anglicans, Baptists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Methodists, Muslims, Presbyterians, and so forth?

What I'm saying, is if your god is not based on what we're told in the scriptures, you may be inventing a god in your own image, an idol.

What I said was that the Bible we see today has been influenced numerous times. They don't call a popular one the "King James Version" as a tribute or honor to James, they call it that because James had it re-written! Too, if you look at the order of the books in what you call the OT, you'll find that it's slightly different in a Hebrew Bible. Which is the one God influenced? I don't know, and I suspect you don't either.

Sure, all books of the bible (new and old testaments) have been translated for our modern languages. But that doesn't mean the meanings have necessarily been lost. As I understand it, the difference in the Hebrew and "Christian versions" of the OT is pretty much just in how they're numbered, maybe organized, not in their messages. Of course I don't speak Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramiac so I'm depending on others who to to vouch for the proper translations.

What I also said was that God did build your heart and stuck it in your chest. You know right from wrong, and you know what kind of life He wants you to live. How can any book surpass that? (The "you" in here is meant generally.)

We agree and believe that God has written His law on our hearts. But we're sinful, fallen men. Every single one of us. We tend to corrupt everything over time. The deceiver will find our weaknesses and will twist what God has told us so that we'll feel well justified in doing what we think is right rather than what God knows is right. The Old Testament is replete with examples. I can only speak for myself but Every. Single. Day, I find myself justifying some action, spoken word, or thought that I know God would disapprove, even though he's written His word on my heart. I don't need a "book" to know better but we all need that rock to grab onto, to swim towards, and to stand on so that we'll know the direction back to God. Even the ones closest to God, even David, who was after God's own heart failed. We don't stand a chance left to our own devices.

 

[Alpo]

Sure, all books of the bible (new and old testaments) have been translated for our modern languages. But that doesn't mean the meanings have necessarily been lost. As I understand it, the difference in the Hebrew and "Christian versions" of the OT is pretty much just in how they're numbered, maybe organized, not in their messages. Of course I don't speak Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramiac so I'm depending on others who to to vouch for the proper translations.

Over the last 30 years, there has been an increasing level of activity in the study of the Bronze Age collapse, the rise of a Jewish identity in the Levant and the historiography associated with the Masoretic texts, particularly Exodus. Between earthquake storms, draughts, plagues, collapse of long-distance tin trade and the pressures that resulted therefrom on the palace economies of the area, it seems that a perfect storm of conditions existed that resulted in a "dark" age beginning in the late 13th century BC to about the early 10th century BC. Not to dwell on the detail, but it seems to me that the rise to power of the United Monarchy was perfectly situated in an era where all great powers in the region were in disarray. Is it any wonder that the tribes of Israel saw themselves as a "chosen" people?

It appears there is a growing consensus that events depicted in the OT are in many ways inconsistent with the archaeologic record and records from other societies existing at the time. It is highly probable that the OT account of Joshua's destruction of Canaan, along with the demand by God to kill all women in children in those cities, is untrue. The wonders of the temple of Solomon and the relative size and strength of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel depicted in the OT are fictive.

Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence. However, faith in the face of incontrovertible evidence isn't a noble adventure.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Over the last 30 years, there has been an increasing level of activity in the study of the Bronze Age collapse, the rise of a Jewish identity in the Levant and the historiography associated with the Masoretic texts, particularly Exodus. Between earthquake storms, draughts, plagues, collapse of long-distance tin trade and the pressures that resulted therefrom on the palace economies of the area, it seems that a perfect storm of conditions existed that resulted in a "dark" age beginning in the late 13th century BC to about the early 10th century BC. Not to dwell on the detail, but it seems to me that the rise to power of the United Monarchy was perfectly situated in an era where all great powers in the region were in disarray. Is it any wonder that the tribes of Israel saw themselves as a "chosen" people?

It appears there is a growing consensus that events depicted in the OT are in many ways inconsistent with the archaeologic record and records from other societies existing at the time. It is highly probable that the OT account of Joshua's destruction of Canaan, along with the demand by God to kill all women in children in those cities, is untrue. The wonders of the temple of Solomon and the relative size and strength of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel depicted in the OT are fictive.

Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence. However, faith in the face of incontrovertible evidence isn't a noble adventure.

Wait. I thought you didn't want to debate these things with people who have their minds made up? Or is it you just couldn't resist a drive by swat?

 

[Bill of Rights]

That comment was based on yours (from above):



I assumed you meant by that to pray to God, I had to submit to some earthly authority. I don't. I do not need an intermediary, person to pray to God through the atoning power of Jesus Christ. You don't believe Jesus is the messiah. If I'm mistaken and you're saying I have to submit to Jesus' authority, well--I'll agree to that.

No, what I was referring to was the idea that mankind needed the priesthood, some anointed one to serve as the intermediary, someone holier than we were. In Catholicism, for example, the scripture was written and the service performed in Latin, which few people spoke, for just a few years. That's not the case anymore, but we retain the remnant in the sense of such things as the confessional, or the person who is somehow "qualified" to absolve you of your sin.

What I'm saying, is if your god is not based on what we're told in the scriptures, you may be inventing a god in your own image, an idol.

God, as I know Him, is basically what we read in Scripture, but not wholly so. There are passages where it talks about this or that act and the phrase, "God hates that." (and yes, one of them references sodomy, and I am NOT going off on that tangent) I don't believe that phrase. God, as I know Him, does not hate; He is a God of love. Even the concept of evil, personified in Lucifer, God did not hate, but to turn a phrase, they don't live together or see each other anymore... and that was, IIRC, Lucifer's choice, not God's. Perhaps I'm making an idol here, but in a way, I do picture God as a loving Father, whether that means Him being there to hold us and "kiss the booboos" we get by not listening, or by sitting in the bleachers, cheering us on as we pour on the speed to make that touchdown or even when He has to be stern and send us to our rooms with a sore backside, He still loves us, and will never, ever hesitate to hold us and tell us so.

Sure, all books of the bible (new and old testaments) have been translated for our modern languages. But that doesn't mean the meanings have necessarily been lost. As I understand it, the difference in the Hebrew and "Christian versions" of the OT is pretty much just in how they're numbered, maybe organized, not in their messages. Of course I don't speak Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramiac so I'm depending on others who to to vouch for the proper translations.

The order in which a story is told can make an enormous difference, whether in terms of context or timing. Think of it in terms of a marital argument: I went to the bar after work. I called my wife to tell her I'd be late. The order and timing of those two sentences can make all the difference. Call her after you're there and there may be trouble. Call her during the day to tell her not to make a big supper, that you have a meeting with a client after you leave the office, and more than likely, there will be no argument... unless you come home with lipstick on your collar and/or glitter on your skivvies.

We agree and believe that God has written His law on our hearts. But we're sinful, fallen men. Every single one of us. We tend to corrupt everything over time. The deceiver will find our weaknesses and will twist what God has told us so that we'll feel well justified in doing what we think is right rather than what God knows is right. The Old Testament is replete with examples. I can only speak for myself but Every. Single. Day, I find myself justifying some action, spoken word, or thought that I know God would disapprove, even though he's written His word on my heart. I don't need a "book" to know better but we all need that rock to grab onto, to swim towards, and to stand on so that we'll know the direction back to God. Even the ones closest to God, even David, who was after God's own heart failed. We don't stand a chance left to our own devices.

We don't stand a chance of perfection, no, nor is that expected. We stand a good chance of pursuing it, though, and when we fail, offering Him our sincere apology and promise to try harder... Again, it's the journey that brings us to Him, and how we go about that journey, not so much which road we choose or what mode of travel. You can arrive on a pair of rollerblades or in a luxury jet, and either way, you're gonna stand naked and afraid before the Great White Throne, so to speak. I once had a teacher, a minister, who described that time, standing before Him, stripped of all your masks and disguises and justifications and having to see it there on the big screen TV what all you did and didn't do in your life, what you said and didn't say, what you thought and didn't think, as Hell. That image has stuck with me, far more than the dude with the horns and spade tail and the pitchfork, waiting for eternity for the air conditioning repair guy to show up like waiting on Comcast.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[Alpo]

Wait. I thought you didn't want to debate these things with people who have their minds made up? Or is it you just couldn't resist a drive by swat?

I'm not debating your beliefs. As I said, you are welcome to them.

However, just because my beliefs might differ from yours, it does not mean I haven't studied the Bible or the evidence that is available from scholars and archaeologists who work in the area in question. I'm not a medieval peasant relying upon the word of a priest. What I've provided is an observation. You can use it or discard it. Makes no difference to me.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm not debating your beliefs. As I said, you are welcome to them.

However, just because my beliefs might differ from yours, that does not mean I haven't studied the Bible or the evidence that is available from scholars and archaeologists who work in the area in question. I'm not a medieval peasant relying upon the word of a priest. What I've provided is an observation. You can use it or discard it. Makes no difference to me.

Thank you.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

God, as I know Him, does not hate; He is a God of love. Even the concept of evil, personified in Lucifer, God did not hate, but to turn a phrase, they don't live together or see each other anymore... and that was, IIRC, Lucifer's choice, not God's. Perhaps I'm making an idol here, but in a way, I do picture God as a loving Father, whether that means Him being there to hold us and "kiss the booboos" we get by not listening, or by sitting in the bleachers, cheering us on as we pour on the speed to make that touchdown or even when He has to be stern and send us to our rooms with a sore backside, He still loves us, and will never, ever hesitate to hold us and tell us so.

I have no doubt God loves us. That's why he sent an unblemished lamb to earth to fulfill the prophecies and be sacrificed for our sins. God is holy and just. He is without sin and cannot abide it. That does not mean he hates the image bearers engage in that behavior. He will, however, give us over to our sins if we choose to embrace them instead of Him. And a just God will punish those who refuse to repent and turn away from their sins -- even sodomy. The bible tells us what he's done in the past with His judgments and His promises for the future...He has a track record and I'm betting He's not lying about the future either.

 

[foszoe]

This isn't really a good argument in favor of accepting what you call "experimental" knowledge over empirical knowledge. What you can observe and test gives a much higher, fact based confidence in the truth of that knowledge. Accepting a thing to be true by faith has no such basis of confidence. Your confidence is the faith you have. And that's fine. For you. It's just not for me.

Jamil,

I have a bit more time on my hands today so I wanted to revisit this for clarification and apologize for the "phone post" replies I have been giving.

Your first statement is not at all what I am attempting. I am not saying experiential knowledge has anything over empirical knowledge, but that rather they answer different questions. I am saying they are two different completely distinct ways of knowing. It's your second statement that I would say is you don't really believe. The personal pronouns are wrong. I think you really mean "one" in place of "you" while I am saying "you" is correct.

There are things that you learn and thus know by experience that can not be proven to another person but just because something is factual does not mean it is provable. And something that is provable does not mean it is factual. Otherwise you can't really know anything. I am in my late 40s. There are things that were taught as known facts when I was a child. Those were things that I knew. However they were wrong. Now did I know those things or did I believe them?

 

[Benp]

I think God is so far above and beyond all of the minutiae of Christian vs. Muslim vs. Jewish vs. whatever, that He takes no notice of those petty details and differences at all.

I think that if God notices when a sparrow falls, and numbers the hairs on our heads, that he does notice when we are following the bible and trying to imitate Christ.

As far as the different translations and some books being out of order...a person can get hung up on questions like these. Sure some words are different, but God's message isn't changed. There are copies of the manuscripts and throughout history these copies show that the Bible has been transmitted accurately. Despite common skeptical claims that the Bible has often been changed through the centuries, the physical evidence tells another story. The New Testament records are incredibly accurate. There are minor differences in manuscripts, but none of these variants impact or change key Christian beliefs or claims.

I also do not follow any man. I try to follow Christ, and sure I make mistakes just like everyone else, but God does not want us to give up. Satan does want us to give up, and think "Why try?"

 

[Brad69]

I have not been following this thread closely but radical Islam or the modern version can be traced to one man.

Sayyid Qutb
He got mad after a trip to study in Greeley Colorado. He was mad about how much time Americans spent on their lawns.
What really got him was when he went to a dance held by a Catholic Church how sinful it was the year was 1949.

He went back to Egypt and wrote some books told the Muslim brotherhood about it. The Egyptian government locked him up and killed him in 1966.

triva who did the Muslim brotherhood fight along side with in WWII ?

 

[foszoe]

I wasn't asking for examples of faith. I was looking for examples of knowledge that can't be proven. Do you know you love your kids? Can you prove it? If they are typical have they ever said "You don't love me!"?

The deeper questions are:


What is belief?
What is faith?
What is known?

I opened a new bank account with one of these internet banks because I wanted a higher interest rate.

They required a 500$ min average daily balance to avoid fees and would allow me to to only deposit 500$ maximum as in initial deposit.

Now

Do I believe, have faith, or know that they require a 500$ average daily balance? I would say I know this.
Do I b,f,k that if it falls below 500$ I will be charge? I would say I know this

So today actually the 500$ transfer deposit was made.

Do I b,f,k that the 500$ is in the bank? I would say I know this.

Now the problem is they opened the account yesterday with a 0 balance so now my average daily balance unless I make a deposit can in no way be 500$.

So will I get charged? I believe I will, because I am a pessimist

So I called yesterday because the balance was 0 and requested further info, they apologized and said they would contact their deposit people to make sure everything is taken care of.

Will I get charged now? I don't know.

Now let's say some one hacks my account and takes out 1$. Do I now know or believe that there is 500$ in that bank account? Did anything on my end change? No.

Now lets say I discover the hack the same day and the bank give me back my $1.

Now let's say at the end of the month, even though my average daily balance falls below $500, they decide not to charge me because of their clerical error.

So my knowledge in every step above must have been belief all along, Yes?

Your entire life is based on what you believe. You are playing probabilities. The bridge will not collapse when you go flying over it. The airplane will not crash when You fly on it. etc.

However, you know you love your son. You know this. Can you prove this knowledge to anyone else? What if I offer you evidence that you feel this love because of chemical processes inside your brain and attempt to prove to you that you don't really love him by choice but because you simply are hard wired to and this love of yours is just a biological process. Would you believe me?

Can you prove to your son that you love him? Can you prove it to anyone? It doesn't appear that your mom was ever able to demonstrate her love you you in a manner that you knew it to be so. This saddens me actually. I know my mom loves me. My dad is another story, but that is a gulf I have not been able to bridge to this point in my life.

Do you b,f,k you love your son?

Well, yeah, I know where you were going with it, but that wasn't a very good example, at least not in the way you asked the questions. It doesn't require faith on my part for either question. To believe or to know either one is possible for me, without elements of faith. And I can't prove to you what is in my own mind. You'd have to have faith that I'm telling you the truth unless you observe the kind of behaviors that support what I claim. But then, that situation isn't at all analogous to spiritual faith.

Speaking of, I can have the same confident belief that my mother loved me as I do that you have faith that God exists. I can observe what you say and what you do and conclude that you have faith. But that's not the problem. The problem is, neither of us can apply that same process to prove God exists. You can't prove that God exists by your faith that he does. You can only prove you have faith.



I'm uncomfortable saying that I have trouble getting past that, because it makes it seem like a hurdle that I should be able to get past. And I don't think of it that way at all. It's like the sliding scale of belief. Circumstances can be such that you suspect something to be true, or evident enough that you believe something is true, or proof enough that you know it's true. Those are fairly objective thresholds. I think it's fine for people to accept things as true based on a religious faith, but I would call that belief, not truth. YOU may believe it's true, but I may not.

 

[PaulF]

There is a difference here.

I don't care what level you set your personal "threshhold of belief". Whatever works for you is satisfactory. I don't need you to prove your beliefs to me for me to understand that you hold those beliefs.

...but, if you want me to believe the same things as you (generic "you", I mean religious believers), you need to make a case beyond "this is what my holy text says". I know what the Bible says, I know what the Qu'aran says...and their arguments are ridiculous without prejudice or personal experience.

Too many believers use "I believe it" as a basis to make the claim "so should you". I don't care what you think your god wants, anymore than you care what Allah or Vishnu "wants"...without additional data (i.e.: a religious experience) there is no reason to hold those characters above Harry Potter or Darth Vader. Men create gods all the time, this is documented fact...what remains unproven is whether "your" god is any different.

 

[foszoe]

I hope I haven't come across in that manner.

I am simply attempting to say it is possible to know something by personal experience that is impossible to prove to anyone else, but that also doesn't mean its any less true.

Being a Christian is not arrived at by head knowledge.

Whether I am in a Chemistry class wanting to know what is in a solution or trying to determine the existence of God, I will never know unless i invest some time in the matter. I can read my Chemistry book all day long and unless I start titrating I will NEVER know what is in that bottle. I can read the Holy Bible, I can read the Koran, or any other sacred text but unless I DO something, I will never know the truth of the matter.

There is a difference here.

I don't care what level you set your personal "threshhold of belief". Whatever works for you is satisfactory. I don't need you to prove your beliefs to me for me to understand that you hold those beliefs.

...but, if you want me to believe the same things as you (generic "you", I mean religious believers), you need to make a case beyond "this is what my holy text says". I know what the Bible says, I know what the Qu'aran says...and their arguments are ridiculous without prejudice or personal experience.

Too many believers use "I believe it" as a basis to make the claim "so should you". I don't care what you think your god wants, anymore than you care what Allah or Vishnu "wants"...without additional data (i.e.: a religious experience) there is no reason to hold those characters above Harry Potter or Darth Vader. Men create gods all the time, this is documented fact...what remains unproven is whether "your" god is any different.

 

[jamil]

There is a difference here.

I don't care what level you set your personal "threshhold of belief". Whatever works for you is satisfactory. I don't need you to prove your beliefs to me for me to understand that you hold those beliefs.

...but, if you want me to believe the same things as you (generic "you", I mean religious believers), you need to make a case beyond "this is what my holy text says". I know what the Bible says, I know what the Qu'aran says...and their arguments are ridiculous without prejudice or personal experience.

Too many believers use "I believe it" as a basis to make the claim "so should you". I don't care what you think your god wants, anymore than you care what Allah or Vishnu "wants"...without additional data (i.e.: a religious experience) there is no reason to hold those characters above Harry Potter or Darth Vader. Men create gods all the time, this is documented fact...what remains unproven is whether "your" god is any different.

This was pretty much my point.

 

[jamil]

I wasn't asking for examples of faith. I was looking for examples of knowledge that can't be proven. Do you know you love your kids? Can you prove it? If they are typical have they ever said "You don't love me!"?

The deeper questions are:


What is belief?
What is faith?
What is known?

I opened a new bank account with one of these internet banks because I wanted a higher interest rate.

They required a 500$ min average daily balance to avoid fees and would allow me to to only deposit 500$ maximum as in initial deposit.

Now

Do I believe, have faith, or know that they require a 500$ average daily balance? I would say I know this.
Do I b,f,k that if it falls below 500$ I will be charge? I would say I know this

So today actually the 500$ transfer deposit was made.

Do I b,f,k that the 500$ is in the bank? I would say I know this.

Now the problem is they opened the account yesterday with a 0 balance so now my average daily balance unless I make a deposit can in no way be 500$.

So will I get charged? I believe I will, because I am a pessimist

So I called yesterday because the balance was 0 and requested further info, they apologized and said they would contact their deposit people to make sure everything is taken care of.

Will I get charged now? I don't know.

Now let's say some one hacks my account and takes out 1$. Do I now know or believe that there is 500$ in that bank account? Did anything on my end change? No.

Now lets say I discover the hack the same day and the bank give me back my $1.

Now let's say at the end of the month, even though my average daily balance falls below $500, they decide not to charge me because of their clerical error.

So my knowledge in every step above must have been belief all along, Yes?

Your entire life is based on what you believe. You are playing probabilities. The bridge will not collapse when you go flying over it. The airplane will not crash when You fly on it. etc.

However, you know you love your son. You know this. Can you prove this knowledge to anyone else? What if I offer you evidence that you feel this love because of chemical processes inside your brain and attempt to prove to you that you don't really love him by choice but because you simply are hard wired to and this love of yours is just a biological process. Would you believe me?

Can you prove to your son that you love him? Can you prove it to anyone? It doesn't appear that your mom was ever able to demonstrate her love you you in a manner that you knew it to be so. This saddens me actually. I know my mom loves me. My dad is another story, but that is a gulf I have not been able to bridge to this point in my life.

Do you b,f,k you love your son?

I've repeatedly said that it doesn't really matter which is in your head. You can assign whatever confidence in your belief you want. But that has no impact on the truth of the thing you believe, have faith in, or know. And why be sad? I suspect that my confidence in what my mom thought of me is likely as high as yours.