Bachmann is called out - The Gauntlet is thrown down

[Libertarian01]

To All,

This could prove a very interesting issue:

Professors offer more than $10,000 for proof that Bachmann

as it puts some blood in the water for the media.

In a side thought this could set the precedent for trying to force politicians of all stripes to be darn sure of their source BEFORE repeating it to the media...?

Regards,

Doug

 

[Prometheus]

There have been an insane number of reactions from the HPV vaccine.

The question is, will those investigating (who are in Mercks pocket BTW) blame something else for all these reactions.

I can't speak to the mental retardation claim, but severe illness, warts, HPV infection and DEATH are known side effects.

I suppose if they want to nitpick, a lowered IQ may not be one of the "adverse reactions"...

Of the many things bachmann has screwed up, I'd say this is most trivial, assuming she was wrong.

 

[rambone]

Anyone who spends 5 minutes searching the web will find plenty of real stories of horrible adverse reactions to vaccines. Big Pharma is desperate to prop up their moneymaker, but actually drawing more attention to the anti-vaccine movement.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

The big issue here isn't whether the vaccine issue has merit or not, but that a citizen is willing to put their money where their mouth is and call out what they believe, right or wrong, a misleading statement.

The idea of arguing a point with another person is one thing, but putting real money behind your point may become a darn effective way of saying "put up or shut up!"

I doubt this will become a trend, but if it does crop up even occasionally it may begin to put a leash on politicians letting their mouths run wild.

And that would be a good effect.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Pocketman]

There are side effects to virtually all medicines. One has to weigh the benefits and the risks. If a particular drug helps 100,000 patients, but 100 have adverse reactions, does that make the drug bad? We tend to focus too much on the negative in almost all aspects of life. ~900 Hoosiers are killed each year in auto accidents. Is that a reason to stop driving?

 

[Bummer]

Seems to me that thread title is a bit of a tease. For a second I had real hope that Palin had challenged Bachmann to a wet t-shirt contest.

Palin fans: calm down. Having done some research on Palin as a result of a challenge put forth by Bitter Clinger, and having seen pictures of her in a snug knit shirt, I have little doubt Palin would win.

As to the actual topic at hand: I think it's great that a couple of Professors (and not drug company execs) have put forth a challenge. This seems like a guaranteed winner. On the one hand we have the potential correction of a line of BS from a politician, on the other hand women could be protected from a serious health problem.

 

[rambone]

We tend to focus too much on the negative in almost all aspects of life. ~900 Hoosiers are killed each year in auto accidents. Is that a reason to stop driving?

The problem with that analogy is that vehicles have some tangible, measurable benefit.

 

[Pocketman]

The problem with that analogy is that vehicles have some tangible, measurable benefit.

And medicine does not?

 

[rambone]

Let me put it this way. Car accidents result from user error of one sort or the other. To compare Gardasil deaths to irresponsible driving is the wrong analogy.

It would make more sense to compare Gardasil deaths to those caused by faulty automobiles sold to the public. Take this example regarding the great Toyota craze of a few years ago.

Will Merck’s Gardasil HPV Vaccine be its Next Vioxx? Injuring Young Girls and Women as a Profit Stream

Reports of faulty gas pedals, obstructive floor carpets and failing breaks in Toyota and Lexus vehicles generated an uproar across major media networks. For the 4 year period starting in 2006, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) had reported 5 deaths, 17 injuries and 13 crashes, and an additional 29 deaths between 2000 and 2005. There was no hesitation among the networks and federal officials to demonize Toyota for knowingly risk the lives of people solely to empty its dealership lots. Even Congress quickly called for a Congressional investigation, and Toyota took upon itself the responsibility to recall over 8 million vehicles.

During the same 4 year period while NHTSA was collecting crash data on Toyota’s lemons, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC)’s Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database was gathering casualty data following vaccinations with Merck’s human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccine, Gardasil. And it was clear that Merck was far ahead and winning its race against Toyota for the Lemon of the Decade Award. Since Gardasil’s launch in 2006, the vaccine has been responsible for 66 deaths and over 17,700 medical injuries of young girls, as young as 11 years old. Six percent of reported events, or 1,100 girls, were serious enough to require emergency hospitalization.

Unfortunately, vaccine injuries are not reported immediately and thoroughly as automobile accidents and deaths. There are no vaccine police rushing to the scene of vaccine accidents to investigate the incidents and to record injuries and fatalities accurately. Consequently, only a fraction of vaccine adverse events are reported by pediatricians, physicians, medical clinics and hospitals, and make their way eventually into the VAERS database. Few parents even know such a reporting system exists.

 

[revsaxon]

Let me put it this way. Car accidents result from user error of one sort or the other. To compare Gardasil deaths to irresponsible driving is the wrong analogy.

It would make more sense to compare Gardasil deaths to those caused by faulty automobiles sold to the public. Take this example regarding the great Toyota craze of a few years ago.

Will Merck’s Gardasil HPV Vaccine be its Next Vioxx? Injuring Young Girls and Women as a Profit Stream

As of 2009, 26 million doses were given out, with 16k adverse reactions (taken from wiki). Of those 16k, 92% were non-serious. 1280 cases of serious side effects in 26,000,000 delivered vaccines, or .004% Your lifetime odds of being hit by a car are 0.014% (taken from national safety council).

The vaccine is effective against the 2 most common strains of HPV that are responsible for 70% of total infections (again, from wiki). To me thats a massive benefit. Since both car and the vaccine have a benefit, and the cars are more dangerous..

Why are you not campaigning to stop cars?

 

[rambone]

As of 2009, 26 million doses were given out, with 16k adverse reactions. Of those 16k, 92% were non-serious. 1280 cases of serious side effects in 26,000,000 delivered vaccines, or .004% Your lifetime odds of being hit by a car are 0.014%. Why are you not campaigning to stop cars?

So supposedly only 4 in 10,000 have a serious reaction? Impossible. I personally know several people who have had serious reactions. I don't know anywhere near 10,000 people.

This is not to mention the tremendous amount of under-reporting that occurs with vaccine side-effects. Doctors aren't likely to concede that the drug they pressured you to get just harmed you. They will say that the reaction was a coincidence, or downplay its seriousness. He will probably tell you to take more drugs to counteract the side-effects from the other drugs.

In my sister's case, our former doctor told her that her seizure was probably from what she had for breakfast. Her reaction was not reported to VAERS. Neither are many, many, many others. People don't even know VAERS exists, and their doctor certainly isn't going to go out of his way to show it to them.

Those stats grossly under-represent the true nature of the situation.

 

[revsaxon]

So supposedly only 4 in 10,000 have a serious reaction? Impossible. I personally know several people who have had serious reactions. I don't know anywhere near 10,000 people.

I know zero people who had a serious reaction. I also don't know 10,000 people. Does that mean that I should believe that 4/10000 is impossible?

This is not to mention the tremendous amount of under-reporting that occurs with vaccine side-effects. Doctors aren't likely to concede that the drug they pressured you to get just harmed you. They will say that the reaction was a coincidence, or downplay its seriousness. He will probably tell you to take more drugs to counteract the side-effects from the other drugs.

In my sister's case, our former doctor told her that her seizure was probably from what she had for breakfast. Her reaction was not reported to VAERS. Neither are many, many, many others. People don't even know VAERS exists, and their doctor certainly isn't going to go out of his way to show it to them.

Those stats grossly under-represent the true nature of the situation.

Im really sorry for her condition, I am. I wouldn't wish seizures on anyone. But just because she has seizures (even immediately after receiving the vaccine, which may or may not have been the case, I don't know obviously) doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. Thats like saying I ate a grapefruit then had a brain aneurism, so obviously grapefruit causes aneurisms. Its a coincidence. Just like a lot of these so called vaccine reactions are coincidences.

Remember, Coincidence does NOT mean cause.

 

[rambone]

I know zero people who had a serious reaction. I also don't know 10,000 people. Does that mean that I should believe that 4/10000 is impossible?

I bet if you talked about vaccines to your family, friends, & acquaintances the way I do, you would find out that somebody has a story to tell.

Im really sorry for her condition, I am. I wouldn't wish seizures on anyone.

Unless they were harmed for the greater good, as you said in the other thread.

But just because she has seizures (even immediately after receiving the vaccine, which may or may not have been the case, I don't know obviously) doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. Thats like saying I ate a grapefruit then had a brain aneurism, so obviously grapefruit causes aneurisms. Its a coincidence. Just like a lot of these so called vaccine reactions are coincidences.

Remember, Coincidence does NOT mean cause.

Vaccines are full of neurotoxins that attack the nervous system. Having a seizure in the exam room, immediately after being injected, is hardly a coincidence. That is the only time in her entire life she's had a seizure.

If grapefruits were full of neurotoxins, maybe I could see the doctor's assertion that my sister's breakfast gave her a seizure. But frankly the doctor was just looking for a scapegoat. Then he tried to get her to come back for 2 more booster shots of seizurific joy.

 

[Expat]

The big issue here isn't whether the vaccine issue has merit or not, but that a citizen is willing to put their money where their mouth is and call out what they believe, right or wrong, a misleading statement.

The idea of arguing a point with another person is one thing, but putting real money behind your point may become a darn effective way of saying "put up or shut up!"

But $10k isn't enough money to get her attention. She is running for President. She also has to know this is a no win situation. There is a small subset of the GOP out on the lunatic fringe that falls for this sort of anti-science nonsense. She has apparently been talking to some of them and allowed herself to be swayed. She needs to get away from this topic and let it fizzle out.

Good luck keeping this thread on the topic you wish with the anti-science gaggle of geese descending to honk away.

 

[superjoe76]

There are side effects to virtually all medicines. One has to weigh the benefits and the risks. If a particular drug helps 100,000 patients, but 100 have adverse reactions, does that make the drug bad? We tend to focus too much on the negative in almost all aspects of life. ~900 Hoosiers are killed each year in auto accidents. Is that a reason to stop driving?

Yes there are! Just listen to those stupid TV commercials that list the side effects (usually worse than the original problem). I cringe every time one comes on, then I change the channel.

 

[Delmar]

To All,

This could prove a very interesting issue:

Professors offer more than $10,000 for proof that Bachmann

as it puts some blood in the water for the media.

In a side thought this could set the precedent for trying to force politicians of all stripes to be darn sure of their source BEFORE repeating it to the media...?

Regards,

Doug

If she can't prove that the story is true, does it absolutely mean that the story is not true?

 

[Principal Skinr]

Since we're posting lots of anecdotal evidence, I'll share mine. My body has been shot full of different vaccines for over 40 years. I feel great.

My issue is not with the effectiveness of the vaccines. I've suffered no known ill effects from vaccines. My issue is with the government forcing people to have this vaccine. Yes, they let parents opt out, and that's a good start. I like better Bachman's idea of letting them opt-in.

Until she produces more than annecdotal evidence of a problem with this particular vaccine, I think she sounds like she's ignorant, which plays nicely into the left's hands.

I, for one, have chosen to have a wide range of vaccines for my 9 children, after considering the pros and cons. While my children have suffered no known ill effects, I'm sure there are problems out there, somewhere. However, my wife and I decided the protections were worth those risks, because they are a low probablility.

Mostly, this issue, and the way Perry did it in Texas, is a side show. The greatest danger my kids face right now is due to this economy. These candidates are circling the wagons, and shooting inward. They need to be attacking President Obama, and his gross mismanagement of the economy, and the harm he has done to our country. I'd take Bachman or Perry over this guy.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I believe vaccinations should be a choice...

The only argument I can give in favour of the op-out system, is that it forces parents to make that decision. If a system is completely opt-in, often times parents that would allow the vaccination to be administered to their child overlook it. Sure, they can go opt-in, but we have busy lives, and we can always "do it later".

I do not like the idea of government requiring an opt-out, but in practice I think it is reasonable.

That, and she argues direct links that she cannot show... that does not strengthen her case.

 

[Bunnykid68]

In Indiana all vaccines are completely voluntary even if your kids go to public school. A simple letter to the school each year stating you will not be getting them vaccines for religious or personal reasons and they are good to go.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

In Indiana all vaccines are completely voluntary even if your kids go to public school. A simple letter to the school each year stating you will not be getting them vaccines for religious or personal reasons and they are good to go.

+1 People make too much out of nothing. If you are paranoid or concerned about the side effects, fine don't get the shots. Not a big deal.