ATF may have accidently approved a Form 1 Machinegun

[Beowulf]

for you guys that previously used trusts

1) can it just be you trustee, your wife co trustee and also benificary?
2) when do you add things to schedule before or after approval?

1) Yes. You just need two people.
2) You do it after approval.

 

[CountryBoy19]

i think im going to file some form 1s so that if this goes further i could be added to the list of plaintiffs.

10 form 1's going out in the mail ...

6 RR AR15's and 4 RDIAS

I thought about some exotic ones too be I honestly don't know that I could really accomplish the manufacture myself on some of the exotic stuff. I'd LOVE to have a MK48 but it's not realistic for me manufacture one...

 

[Beowulf]

10 form 1's going out in the mail ...

6 RR AR15's and 4 RDIAS

I thought about some exotic ones too be I honestly don't know that I could really accomplish the manufacture myself on some of the exotic stuff. I'd LOVE to have a MK48 but it's not realistic for me manufacture one...

Wow, I was thinking of doing one AR-15 lower and maybe my SCAR. I don't know that I can tie up that much cash for however many months it takes for the ATF to refund after rejections. Of course, if I thought they would get approved, I might be willing to sell a kidney and do a whole bunch.

 

[Beowulf]

By the way, how you are you doing the RDIAS's anyway? Do you just make up a serial number and submit the forms, since you can manufacture them until after you get approval anyway?

As I've been thinking about this, registering a H&K sear would be a good idea if there was a chance (granted a very slim chance of course) of even a partial victory in this case (like a grandfathering in of ones submitted and rejected before Congress changes the law to block it).

 

[mms]

im doing 4 just got my trust signed.... 2 m16 RR and 2 hk SEF boxes... might do 2 more when i get the money back from these ones or convince the wife to let me tie up another 400... 1919 and ? undecided about the last one. im trying to be realistic about what i could do on my own

 

[HoughMade]

What "non person" is actually manufacturing the machine gun?

 

[richardraw316]

 

[scottka]

Subscribed. Interested to see how they handle this.

 

[Beowulf]

im doing 4 just got my trust signed.... 2 m16 RR and 2 hk SEF boxes... might do 2 more when i get the money back from these ones or convince the wife to let me tie up another 400... 1919 and ? undecided about the last one. im trying to be realistic about what i could do on my own

I was thinking the same thing on the HK trigger packs. But it sounds like you have to modify the full auto trigger packs to fit the semi gun and then install a sear in it? All obviously after the very unlikely approval, that is.

 

[mms]

Google DLO transferable pack you will get an idea of the conversion

 

[homeless]

A quick update from one of the lawyers heading up efforts at arfcom

I have spent a bunch of time researching and reviewing and speaking to various experts. A lawsuit will be filed. The case will not be quick. You will hear other attorneys gnashing their teeth about how we did something wrong, or didn't do it how they would do it. That's okay. Attorneys have different litigation strategies, and there is nothing wrong with that. I ask that everyone be patient. This is worth it, and it is worth taking the time to do it right. The complaint will include a challenge and attack on the entire NFA. This will not be a single issue case.

 

[HoughMade]

Good for them. Hope it works out.

No one has answered me yet. What non-person will manufacture these new machine guns?

 

[Beowulf]

Good for them. Hope it works out.

No one has answered me yet. What non-person will manufacture these new machine guns?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you mean on the form, if you are building from scratch (or registering a non-receiver as a machine gun), wouldn't the trust be the manufacturer?

 

[HoughMade]

Trusts can own. What authority is there that they can manufacture? People manufacture. People are persons. How do you get around 27 CFR 479.105?

 

[Beowulf]

Trusts can own. What authority is there that they can manufacture? People manufacture. People are persons. How do you get around 27 CFR 479.105?

Honestly, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not sure what tactic they plan on using to challenge this. Currently though, Trusts can manufacture DDs, suppressors, and other weapons under a Form 1, so apparently they do have the ability to manufacture items covered by the NFA. How that plays into the Hughes Amendment, I'm not sure.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Trusts can own. What authority is there that they can manufacture? People manufacture. People are persons. How do you get around 27 CFR 479.105?

As stated below, Trusts, via their trustees, manufacture many Title II firearms every year. I have a suppressor and SBR that were manufactured by my trust several years ago. As a trustee, I manufactured those on behalf of the trust, acting for the trust.

If you are implying that because I'm a person and I am physically the one that would be making the item, that's another area where the ATF double-speak has caught them... They don't look at it that way. If the paperwork is for the trust and the person doing the manufacturing is a trustee or representative of the trust then it's not the "person" making it, it's the trust... makes perfect sense doesn't it? This is NO different than a person working for FN makes a machinegun for the military. The "person" isn't making the machinegun, FN is making the machinegun and the "person" is acting as a representative/employee/etc of FN.


If your question was moreso in reference to: "Yeah, you have a trust, and you have approval (via long, drawn-out legal battle), but certainly not everbody with a trust has the ability to manufacture a machinegun so therefore must hire it done..." I have no solution to that, it's not something I've considered because I have the full capability to make a machinegun in my own machine-shop.

 

[Rookie]

Your last sentence is why I don't like you...

 

[CountryBoy19]

Your last sentence is why I don't like you...

Sorry... a home machine shop is something I really wanted, I worked in one in college, I work for one now (as an engineer), and I wanted one at home for my own projects. I don't have an ideal setup, but what I do have makes it clear that nearly anybody can have a shop, it's just a matter of wanting it bad enough... I live in a subdivision, a tiny little residential garage, my wife insists that whatever I do she is still able to park her car inside. I've made it work around those parameters. I bought equipment I could fit in the space I have with the finances I have. I don't have top quality stuff, but what I do have does just fine for what I need.

FWIW, if any trusted members of INGO want to come use my machines to manufacture their machineguns after the court-battle send me a PM. I'm open to helping fellow members out.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Sorry... a home machine shop is something I really wanted, I worked in one in college, I work for one now (as an engineer), and I wanted one at home for my own projects. I don't have an ideal setup, but what I do have makes it clear that nearly anybody can have a shop, it's just a matter of wanting it bad enough... I live in a subdivision, a tiny little residential garage, my wife insists that whatever I do she is still able to park her car inside. I've made it work around those parameters. I bought equipment I could fit in the space I have with the finances I have. I don't have top quality stuff, but what I do have does just fine for what I need.

FWIW, if any trusted members of INGO want to come use my machines to manufacture their machineguns after the court-battle send me a PM. I'm open to helping fellow members out.

Tagging for future favor asking.

 

[ryknoll3]

The way I see this shaking out is that if it goes to court, the court will simply lean on "legislative intent" (which happens all the time in the justice system) and say that if you look at 922(o) and look at the exemptions that Congress wrote in (for LEO and those manufacturing for LEO or .gov) that Congress clearly intended that citizens not be allowed to register new machine guns, that ATF got it wrong when they considered trusts not to be persons and that will be the end of it.... and the challenge to NFA itself will go nowhere.

Not trying to be negative, I just don't see this going anywhere. If several courts of appeals can read the right to bear arms as "only if you can prove you need to," how far do you think arguing that ATF says a trust isn't a person, therefore a trust should be able to make MG's will get you?