ATF may have accidently approved a Form 1 Machinegun

[homeless]

The following is straight up copy-pasta from the most recent update on arfcom.


This is the link to the beginning of the thread.
ATF ruling may have opened door to new machine guns--Pg9 Form 1 APPROVED Pg18 ATF call audio - Page 1 - AR15.COM

Originally Posted By orpheus762x51:

Sorry I've been out of the loop for about 18 hours.

Update to the OP:






[span style='font-size: 10pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']ETA: 9/11/14[/span][/span]


The audio of the ATF call on page 18 (thanks Jaqufrost):

[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By jaqufrost:[/span]
Audio is up. I'm not going to say I handled this phone call the best, but here it is.
ATF Phone call directing return of approved Trust Form 1 for Machinegun. - YouTube

[span style='font-size: 10pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']
ETA: 9/12/14[/span][/span]



[span style='font-size: 12pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']FAQ - - for the tl;dr crowd[/span][/span]
(Started by Undefined, edited by Orpheus762x51)


[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']What’s happening?[/span][/span]

1. ATF ruled that a trust is not a person as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a) and the Gun Control Act (GCA).
2. Since ATF holds that an unincorporated trust is not a “person” under the GCA, the prohibition on the transfer or possession of machineguns as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(1) and 18 U.S. Code § 922(o) cannot apply to unincorporated trusts.
3. Numerous (See Footnote #1) trustees submitted Form 1 applications to build new machine guns.
4. ATF approved the applications and sent out stamps (See Footnote #2).
5. On or around 9/10/14, ATF began calling trustees that received stamps demanding that they be returned, or in the case of eForms, updating their online status from Approved to Disapproved. Those that were called were told they had to return the stamp. (See Footnote #3 for audio of one such call)
6. Attorneys are working on it now...

Footnotes:
1. Current estimates put the number of trusts that applied somewhere in the low hundreds. Unfortunately, there is no 100% accurate count that is publicly available.
2. Some stamps were received as early as the first week of August 2014. Others have not been received yet.
3. Jaqufrost's call from the ATF:

ATF Phone call directing return of approved Trust Form 1 for Machinegun. - YouTube

























[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Does this mean if I have a trust I can get Form 1s approved to build machine guns?[/span][/span]

No. BATFE is no longer sending out approvals. Your application will be rejected.


[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Should I submit a Form 1 through a trust right now?[/span][/span]

[span style='font-weight: bold;']Yes.[/span] As of right now, the ATF is aware of what is going on with these Form 1s. Your submission will likely be rejected, however it would add you to a class of trustees who have standing against the ATF in the event of future legal action. Even though your Form 1 application will likely be denied, it would be helpful to submit a Form 1.


[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']What should I do if I was one of the trustees that submitted a Form 1 and received approval?[/span][/span]

Presto97sl summed it up pretty well (see below). I would add that you should contact NoloContendere via IM and at nolocontendere@ar15.com as he is a rally point right now for coordinating and tracking efforts on this issue.
Here is what Nolo wants, in this particular order:
1) if you received an approval and subsequent to that approval manufactured And then had a disapproval.
2) if you received an approval and then were denied.
3) if you filed a form 1 and were denied.

Originally Posted By Presto97sl:
Let me begin with I am an attorney.

Anyone who had one of these approved and then denied needs to do the following
1. Cut off any contact with the ATF directly regarding this issue until you have sought legal counsel.
2. Keep a copy of any information they mail to you, I would photo copy and hang onto everything.
3. Contact an attorney who specializes in this area of law.
4. DO NOT cash the check they are going to send you refunding your paid tax ( you may waive your rights by doing so).

[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']
What can the rest of us do to help?[/span][/span]

1. Keep the thread bumped.
2. Submit a Form 1 to manufacture a machine gun through a trust.
3. Stand by.

[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Where can I send donations?[/span][/span]

Nowhere, yet! There will be a time and place for that, but no one wants to start collecting money until we know how and where it will be spent. Plaintiffs are discussing options with attorneys right now. Attorneys are working on a plan right now. As soon as funding is needed, it will be requested (after getting Strykers approval). Until then, be patient.

[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']So the OP has an approved Form 1 and a machine gun?[/span][/span]

No. Orpheus762x51 started this thread and is keeping Arfcom updated on the situation. Jaqufrost did receive an approval on his Form 1, then the ATF subsequently demanded that it be returned. Undefined, NoloContendere, I_am_Dan, and a few others in this thread are just plain awesome.

[span style='font-size: 14pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']How do I Submit a Form 1?[/span][/span]

For paper Forms: Complete Guide of how to complete a Form 1

For eForms: Visual guide: How to fill out a Form 1 using EFORMS





[span style='font-size: 10pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']ETA: 9/13/14[/span][/span]


The die has been cast on Page 36.

[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By FlyingGorilla:[/span]


[span style='font-weight: bold;'][span style='color: red;']I've been informed that one of my gunsmith's customers (Mr Ground Zero) [span style='text-decoration: underline;']received his stamp and converted an AR[/span] in early August.[/span]
[/span]
His lawyer has opined that the ATF is VERY CAREFULLY choosing their words as they contact those people that they have issued stamps to. His take is that they are trying to intimidate people into surrendering their stamps and any MGs that have been manufactured since those stamps were received. No words stating that the stamp holders MUST surrender were used in the audio recording posted here, it has merely been implied.

No certified letters have been received by Mr Ground Zero as is required by law when ATF ORDERS an FFL to surrender stamps or firearms. No other such official communications have taken place, either. Simply a phone call, which does not constitute an official communication. It sounds just like the telephone games IRS plays with people trying to entrap them into admitting to tax fraud.

This one individual has already contacted his congressman and is working to provide the information requested by the congressman's office to verify this complaint, which may be the prelude to congressional action on ATF making a policy change that required congressional action to be legal.

ATF is scurrying around trying to cover this mess up like a cat with diarrhea, and they are not doing a very good job of things as everything they've done has uncovered more **** they don't want exposed.

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.
One of the first machine guns produced in civilian hands in nearly thirty years...
[span style='font-weight: bold;']With ATF approval.[/span]



Yes. You heard right.


[span style='font-size: 10pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']A machine gun.


Manufactured after 1986.


With ATF Form 1 approval. [/span][/span]



[span style='font-size: 12pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Is in the WILD!!![/span][/span]





Also, this issue has been making it's way around the internet in the form of several articles in just a couple days:

The Firearm Blog: ATF Approves Post-86 Machine Gun Form 1

The Firearm Blog: BATFE Phone Call Asking For Return of Approved Trust Form 1

The Truth About Guns: ATF Just Approved the First New Civilian Machine Gun in 28 Years. By Accident.

NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog: ATF Approves some Form 1 to Make Machine Guns by a Gun Trust and then Rescinds the Approval

Prince Law Offices, P. C. : Did ATF Approve Your Making of a New Machinegun and Then Rescind It? Contact Us To Discuss

Thanks for reading, and for following along, and to all the great crew on arfcom helping with this.


-Dan

 

[homeless]

For the record, I_am_Dan on arfcom, if this case pertains to you or there is anything you can do to help then don't hesitate to contact me here or there.

 

[Bluejeeper]

Thanks for the updates. I'll be keeping an eye on this

 

[Hkindiana]

Wow, is all I can say

 

[Beowulf]

Hmm, now I'm tempted to file a Form 1 and part ways with $200 for a few months to join the campaign.

Anyone done this yet?

 

[homeless]

Hmm, now I'm tempted to file a Form 1 and part ways with $200 for a few months to join the campaign.

Anyone done this yet?

There are guys doing just that! Check the link I provided and read the details somewhere past page 30 or so.

 

[Beowulf]

There are guys doing just that! Check the link I provided and read the details somewhere past page 30 or so.

Looks like they updated the FAQ in the thread:

Does this mean if I have a trust I can get Form 1s approved to build machine guns?


No. BATFE is no longer sending out approvals. Your application will be rejected.


Should I submit a Form 1 right now?


No. The door is closed. BATFE is rejecting Form 1's for new machine guns now. It will not make a difference. (Note: If this changes, we'll let you know)

So, I guess there isn't a point in my doing it now.

Oh well, I'll keep an eye out for more info on the legal challenge. At least I can throw a few bucks into the war chest for that.

 

[homeless]

Looks like they updated the FAQ in the thread:

Does this mean if I have a trust I can get Form 1s approved to build machine guns?


No. BATFE is no longer sending out approvals. Your application will be rejected.


Should I submit a Form 1 right now?


No. The door is closed. BATFE is rejecting Form 1's for new machine guns now. It will not make a difference. (Note: If this changes, we'll let you know)

So, I guess there isn't a point in my doing it now.

Oh well, I'll keep an eye out for more info on the legal challenge. At least I can throw a few bucks into the war chest for that.

The point is to get rejected and make yourself a potential plaintiff for a class action suit. Which is one of the strategies being discussed.

 

[mikefraz]

Following this very closely. This would be huge.

 

[kaveman]

Worth following but I have my doubts.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

Tagged

 

[mms]

does any one know what a dlo trigger pack says on the form 4? im going to submitt a couple forms one for hk trigger pack and 1 for DIAS

 

[CountryBoy19]

does any one know what a dlo trigger pack says on the form 4? im going to submitt a couple forms one for hk trigger pack and 1 for DIAS

I was wondering the same thing... DIAS/trigger packs FTW!!!

 

[Titanium_Frost]

This is so cool, I could see this taking years but perhaps giving us a foothold to derail the entire NFA if we can reopen the original SCOTA case. One thing I know from experience is that litigation sucks when you are in the middle of it. Give every one of these guys and lawyers your support and a great big Huzzah!

 

[mms]

i think im going to file some form 1s so that if this goes further i could be added to the list of plaintiffs.

 

[HoughMade]

"aid and abet"....I don't know if that is the phrase I would choose.

 

[homeless]

"aid and abet"....I don't know if that is the phrase I would choose.

Life is more fun with creative linguistics

 

[HoughMade]

I'll remember you said that.

 

[mms]

for you guys that previously used trusts

1) can it just be you trustee, your wife co trustee and also benificary?
2) when do you add things to schedule before or after approval?

 

[Car Ramrod]

Do as I say, not as I do. Unless I say to do what I do, in which case, don't do that either.

Subscribing to this.