Arvada, Colorado Police shooting

[BugI02]

I think it's pretty simple here. Clear the weapon, toss the ammo way far away and DROP IT.

I don't think you even need to handle it. Keep cover, check for other bad guys. If all clear, keep the downed perp covered and move up and kick it clear. Open the distance again and wait for the authorities to take control of the scene. When they arrive, personal weapon holstered or on the ground follow ALL instructions, whether you agree or not, until they sort things out

BehindBlueI's advice is on point - because of who is giving it and because it makes sense

 

[rooster]

One the one hand I can understand the desire to move/handle the rifle. If he thought for some reason that it was a complex attack with more than one person for instance.

the sound of the shots could have been echoing or something and made him think there were more shooters. This kind of phenomenon happens all the time with shootings. They always start with reports of multiple shooters and then later we find out it’s one guy.

As BBI points out we don’t rise to the occasion in a stressful situation, you fall the the level of training you have. Anyone who carries a weapon should be training to reholster and put that thing away. Like it or not cops can be trigger happy. They want to go home at night and the idea of anyone not in a uniform with a gun, let alone one in their hands makes most of them edgy and trigger happy.

put the threat down and then put the gun away, don’t stand their with one in your hands.......

I’m not dropping my own weapon on the ground. Holster it and recover it with your garment. Get your hands up when cops arrive. There is a time to tell them what happened but saying “I’ve got a gun and I just shot someone” to an officer who is adrenaline dumping probably isn’t the right moment.

 

[Bigtanker]

I should have put this in training forum.

It is now.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If all clear, keep the downed perp covered and move up and kick it clear.

Why? What if he's playing possum? That is exactly what lead to my shooting. Guy was shot and "down" and when the arrest team moved up he "woke up" and brought his gun up on them, resulting in his for real demise. Police eventually *have* to break cover move up, contain the scene, render aid, etc. You don't, and you shouldn't. EMS is going up there until police decide it's cool to do so. Fire isn't. Why are you?

Kicking guns is Hollywood. Nobody trains to do that. There is no reason to expose yourself, no reason to tamper with evidence (what if there is now a claim he dropped the gun 15y back and you still shot him? Honestly think that never happens, especially if he lives?) Let the professionals deal with it, and they are (ideally) going to wait until there's a bunch of them, have a long gun for lethal cover, then move up as a team, probably from multiple angles.

 

[bobzilla]

I think all of us that carry know the possible consequences. By this hero's actions I am fairly certain he did as well. While this is a somber and sad moment, we should rejoice in the fact that this citizen stepped up in the moment of greatest need to help his fellow man. He knew that engaging could get him killed, but did not shirk his responsibility as a citizen to help those in need. There are things to learn from this. There are things to train from this. But I would venture a guess that this hero would gladly trade his one life for the possibiity of dozens of other lives. For that I am thankful.

We should all keep in mind WHY we carry and what that truly means. Sure, I'd prefer to not get shot by the police but I would make that trade if it keeps others safe and alive.

 

[printcraft]

Wow. This is a whole level up on suck.

 

[gregr]

I've been the only plain clothes officer at an active shooting scene. It's nerve wracking.

It's difficult for many who haven't been involved in a chaotic shooting scene to really know the reality of how limited your information will be and how your own body will fail you. I know that I am very unlikely to heed verbal commands initially because I will likely be in auditory exclusion and simply not hear you. I've mentioned that after my shooting an officer I know grabbed me by the shoulder of my armor to move me as people behind me were moving up armed and I looked at him, simply saw "uniform" and then went back to the bad guy and let him move me. I knew the officer very well, but didn't take the time to process his face as my brain was busy with other things, uniform = good guy = let him move you was all that I dedicated processing power to. Think of this as the "limited processing power rule" and apply that lens to the following:

From training and experience, here's what I would recommend to prevent good guy on good guy shootings:

1) Communicate. Even if you think there is nobody to communicate with, sound off. "STOP ATTACKING THE OFFICER!" or "DROP YOUR GUN!" or whatever. There are always more 'ear witnesses' then 'eye witnesses' and sounding like a good guy will help people assume you are the good guy.

2) Put your gun away as soon as possible. ESPECIALLY long guns. I've read elsewhere the good guy had picked up the shooter's rifle for some reason, probably thinking it was safer to get it away from him. Even rookie (and sometimes not so rookie) cops get caught up in that. Leave it. Remain behind cover and watch the bad guy, no need to approach and remove the gun. If he gets back on the gun, you know he's a threat again.

3) Nobody gets shot rendering aid. If you are applying pressure to a wound and yelling for help, you are visually and audibly not a threat and "medics" will instantly be assumed "good guy" by the limited processing power rule.

4) If response is delayed and there is time, call 911 yourself. ID yourself. Now is the time to think about your wording. Do not call and say "I shot someone" and hang up. I've honest to God heard of a trainer who was telling people to call 911 and say "there's been a shooting" then hang up. That's so retarded it should be criminal to teach it to people and I can know immediately that well-meaning idiot has no experience in this realm and doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Something like "I shot someone attacking your officer at (location). The suspect is (down/fled north/whatever). I am an off duty officer (if applicable) with XXXX. I am (physical description) wearing (clothing) and will meet your officers at (location) and make myself known. My gun is (holstered/in my car/at my feet/whatever *BUT NOT IN YOUR HANDS*). Provide suspect description if suspect is still out, including last known direction of travel. Give an estimate of number of casualties and severity so EMS can be started, if applicable. If possible, have the phone on speaker and in a shirt pocket or the like once you can hear sirens. Nothing in your hands is preferable. DO NOT ASSUME THE OFFICERS KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD DISPATCH. This is a literal game of telephone, the dispatcher can mix things up, the radio may be so tied up information hasn't went out yet, an individual officer may not have heard that piece of traffic as he concentrated on negotiating a crowded intersection of oblivious idiot drivers, ec.

5) Follow instructions of uniformed officers. Now is not the time to talk or explain, it's the time to listen. This is drilled into us. It doesn't matter if you're a 20 year supervisor and the first uniformed officer is a kid 6 weeks out of the academy. He's in charge until you're detained and vetted.

Agree and understand ALL you`ve said here, and I bet I know the response I`ll get with this question, but; is it policy if law enforcement rolls up and see`s an armed "someone" while responding to a call to just start shooting? Or to engage verbally first to assess the situation? I`m NOT placing blame here, but I WILL say, from someone whose never been in law enforcement, it COULD appear as though this was an overreaction, and a big mistake that should have not happened.

 

[ECS686]

I think all of us that carry know the possible consequences. By this hero's actions I am fairly certain he did as well. While this is a somber and sad moment, we should rejoice in the fact that this citizen stepped up in the moment of greatest need to help his fellow man. He knew that engaging could get him killed, but did not shirk his responsibility as a citizen to help those in need. There are things to learn from this. There are things to train from this. But I would venture a guess that this hero would gladly trade his one life for the possibiity of dozens of other lives. For that I am thankful.

We should all keep in mind WHY we carry and what that truly means. Sure, I'd prefer to not get shot by the police but I would make that trade if it keeps others safe and alive.

Respectfully, I am not so sure as many do. I say this from conversations I've had with several. I tried to give input (when they asked) on some real experience I have encountered with crime and responses as a LEO and FLETC instructor. The problem was many had a one dimensional scenerio where EVERYTHING happens like they think it will They have perfect communication and real time intel and they are ALWAYS the winner.

All of that is never guaranteed

 

[Bigtanker]

Respectfully, I am not so sure as many do. I say this from conversations I've had with several. I tried to give input (when they asked) on some real experience I have encountered with crime and responses as a LEO and FLETC instructor. The problem was many had a one dimensional scenerio where EVERYTHING happens like they think it will They have perfect communication and real time intel and they are ALWAYS the winner.

All of that is never guaranteed

I'll agree with this.

When I first started carrying 20+ years ago, I had absolutely NO clue about anything. Didn't know the first thing about the laws, tactics or even my responsibility as a gun owner. All I knew was I had a gun and now I was "invincible". I didn't take it seriously. Sadly I know several buddies that have carried for even longer than I and still have no clue. I try and encourage them to get some more info, training even watch some simple videos (Active Self Protection on YT) to see the possibilities. Maybe then they will start to take it seriously.

I wasn't until I searched out info about a new gun I wanted I found INGO and started learning about all of this stuff. Upgraded my gear, learned about the law and even took some classes.

But I make it a point to educate myself as much as possible now. When stories like this pop up, it's a INTOT moment. (I never thought about that). What are the chances this will happen to me? Slim to none. But knowing what to do if it does happen could save my life. Just like CPR, or how to use a tourniquet, pack a wound etc. I educated myself on these matters. Just in case.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Agree and understand ALL you`ve said here, and I bet I know the response I`ll get with this question, but; is it policy if law enforcement rolls up and see`s an armed "someone" while responding to a call to just start shooting? Or to engage verbally first to assess the situation? I`m NOT placing blame here, but I WILL say, from someone whose never been in law enforcement, it COULD appear as though this was an overreaction, and a big mistake that should have not happened.

It depends. There is no legal or ethical duty for LE or for you to provide a verbal warning if the context doesn't allow for it. This is why managing your image and controlling the context matters. You see someone pointing a gun at your wife in the line at the gas station. He's angrily yelling and gesturing toward the back of the store. Do you verbally challenge? If you do and he turns to see what the noise is because he can't process the input or just can't hear over the scene, what do you do?

You hear shots in a school. You see a guy running toward the occupied playground with a rifle at the ready. Do you verbally challenge? If he doesn't respond, what now?

Now picture the first scenario but you can hear the gunman yelling "let the cashier go and come around the counter. " Or he is in a security uniform and is bleeding from an apparent knife wound. Would you decide you might have more time to access? Either way, maybe he was talking to a robber you couldn't initially see, right?

The second, the rifle is slung and he's yelling "get away from the school, there is a shooter inside!" Would you be less likely to drop him if he didn't respond?

Policy won't make you un-shot, but policy is usually "verbal warning *if* feasible". All responders may not be cops.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Stolen from a poster on another forum:
*********
Not being a police officer but being a cognitive psychologist with a specialization in visual perception, I would want NOTHING in my hands when the police arrive. The principle that perception is a constructive act is not to be fooled with. Diallo's wallet and guys with cells phones come to mind. Open hands!! Items in hands are threats.

As a civilian, in a FOF exercise with police, I was 'shot' standing there with my hands up because I 'moved'. At the NTI, in a courthouse terrorist attack, when I managed to get a terrorist's gun, shot said person and heard the police arrive, I ditched the gun. Now the whistle had blown to stop, so I really didn't have to worry about what happened to the grounded gun.

Holding a long gun is so atypical, easier to spot because of its physical characteristics in a parsing of the scene, it is making you 'pop out' - a psychophysical term when a scene is scanned by fast parallel processing visual systems and you are the 'target'.

For your hands, if you look at pictorial inventories (must have one somewhere), of harmless objects in the hands of folks that were mistakenly shot, you would see the point.

| | | | |
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That horizontal cross piece is known as a visual primitive and detected quickly and in parallel in a crowd.

 

[gregr]

It depends. There is no legal or ethical duty for LE or for you to provide a verbal warning if the context doesn't allow for it. This is why managing your image and controlling the context matters. You see someone pointing a gun at your wife in the line at the gas station. He's angrily yelling and gesturing toward the back of the store. Do you verbally challenge? If you do and he turns to see what the noise is because he can't process the input or just can't hear over the scene, what do you do?

You hear shots in a school. You see a guy running toward the occupied playground with a rifle at the ready. Do you verbally challenge? If he doesn't respond, what now?

Now picture the first scenario but you can hear the gunman yelling "let the cashier go and come around the counter. " Or he is in a security uniform and is bleeding from an apparent knife wound. Would you decide you might have more time to access? Either way, maybe he was talking to a robber you couldn't initially see, right?

The second, the rifle is slung and he's yelling "get away from the school, there is a shooter inside!" Would you be less likely to drop him off he didn't respond?

Policy won't make you un-shot, but policy is usually "verbal warning *if* feasible". All responders may not be cops.

You make great points about context and what really may, or may not be the situation.

 

[jamil]

You can be unarmed and let the shooter kill you, or you can stand up for yourself and the police will kill you. Life in Biden's America.

Well, I don’t think that’s fair though. I’d wager that the officer feels like **** for shooting the guy who stopped that guy from shooting more officers. I think things would have gone much differently if the guy had not picked up that rifle.

 

[Ark]

Well, I don’t think that’s fair though. I’d wager that the officer feels like **** for shooting the guy who stopped that guy from shooting more officers. I think things would have gone much differently if the guy had not picked up that rifle.

Yes, I know, I'm being facetious.

If it is actually confirmed that he picked up the shooter's rifle at the wrong time, that's case closed as far as I'm concerned. He made an incredibly dumb decision and paid for it. There's a limit to the ability of police officers to save you from your own poor judgement.

It's illustrative of why I think the "truck gun" thing is so dumb. If you're holding an AR15 at the scene of a "mass shooter with an AR15" situation and aren't in a police uniform, you're getting shot on sight.

 

[rooster]

What happened is tragic, I am however glad that it has created some serious discussion here and on many other forums about the realities of being an armed person near a shooting.

what would be more tragic is for us to not learn from this.

 

[Ark]

What happened is tragic, I am however glad that it has created some serious discussion here and on many other forums about the realities of being an armed person near a shooting.

what would be more tragic is for us to not learn from this.

Not the first time something similar has happened. What I have learned from this is: Do not draw until you intend to shoot. Draw, shoot until threat is unambiguously ended, immediately reholster and re-conceal. Done correctly most people on the scene should never pick up on the fact that you had a gun. Join the flow of people exiting the scene and explain yourself to the police later.

 

[foszoe]

Some of what I am reading is contrary to some of the training I have had. I often heard, the time to be quick is on the draw, you have all day to reholster...or something similar.

The point being, unless you are sure the situation is under control, reholstering too quickly can be just as detrimental to your survival as being too slow on the draw.

Now, I would think if one is cognizant of a police presence, one may reholster or even place a weapon on the ground, but how do you determine if the situation IS under control? How can you be certain that there isn't a second shooter? That the person you shot is no longer a threat?

It would seem that the situational awareness in a typical self-defense situation may be different than the situational awareness needed for a Good Samaritan situation.

For example, in a self defense situation, I would think it is easier to know the entry conditions. IF 2 guys walk up to rob you, you know there are two guys....unless there is a third behind you....but hopefully the reader understands what I am trying to say. When one is a third party to the shooting, one may not be as certain of the threat.

Do you perceive there is any difference between being the victim and being the Samaritan?

I am certain that once I see an officer in the area I would want to drop my weapon to the ground. I am not so certain that I would even want to attempt to reholster as perhaps that motion could be perceived as bringing a weapon to bear.

What do you think?

 

[KellyinAvon]

It depends. There is no legal or ethical duty for LE or for you to provide a verbal warning if the context doesn't allow for it. This is why managing your image and controlling the context matters. You see someone pointing a gun at your wife in the line at the gas station. He's angrily yelling and gesturing toward the back of the store. Do you verbally challenge? If you do and he turns to see what the noise is because he can't process the input or just can't hear over the scene, what do you do?

You hear shots in a school. You see a guy running toward the occupied playground with a rifle at the ready. Do you verbally challenge? If he doesn't respond, what now?

Now picture the first scenario but you can hear the gunman yelling "let the cashier go and come around the counter. " Or he is in a security uniform and is bleeding from an apparent knife wound. Would you decide you might have more time to access? Either way, maybe he was talking to a robber you couldn't initially see, right?

The second, the rifle is slung and he's yelling "get away from the school, there is a shooter inside!" Would you be less likely to drop him if he didn't respond?

Policy won't make you un-shot, but policy is usually "verbal warning *if* feasible". All responders may not be cops.

Thanks for the perspective and wise words BBI.

 

[ECS686]

Some of what I am reading is contrary to some of the training I have had. I often heard, the time to be quick is on the draw, you have all day to reholster...or something similar.

The point being, unless you are sure the situation is under control, reholstering too quickly can be just as detrimental to your survival as being too slow on the draw.

Now, I would think if one is cognizant of a police presence, one may reholster or even place a weapon on the ground, but how do you determine if the situation IS under control? How can you be certain that there isn't a second shooter? That the person you shot is no longer a threat?

It would seem that the situational awareness in a typical self-defense situation may be different than the situational awareness needed for a Good Samaritan situation.

For example, in a self defense situation, I would think it is easier to know the entry conditions. IF 2 guys walk up to rob you, you know there are two guys....unless there is a third behind you....but hopefully the reader understands what I am trying to say. When one is a third party to the shooting, one may not be as certain of the threat.

Do you perceive there is any difference between being the victim and being the Samaritan?

I am certain that once I see an officer in the area I would want to drop my weapon to the ground. I am not so certain that I would even want to attempt to reholster as perhaps that motion could be perceived as bringing a weapon to bear.

What do you think?

Respectfully discussing. The issue is theres a big difference in using your firearm (legally) in a random isolated robbery where Police are not alerted and in route full force til after its over vs engaging an active shooter then holding his, yours whoevers gun. After the alarm is out and an LEOs response is there (and they usually don't run up sirens blaring they deploy away and move or were on foot anyway)

Its just a sad chain of events and sad thing Nobody really knows what the citizen was thinkin and can only oresme LEO shows up (did he/she hear but not see gunfire as he was reponding?) then turn a corner guys on the ground second guy has rifle (did witness call 911 with man with rifle?) Lots of weeds to get down into on it

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Some of what I am reading is contrary to some of the training I have had. I often heard, the time to be quick is on the draw, you have all day to reholster...or something similar.

The point being, unless you are sure the situation is under control, reholstering too quickly can be just as detrimental to your survival as being too slow on the draw.

Now, I would think if one is cognizant of a police presence, one may reholster or even place a weapon on the ground, but how do you determine if the situation IS under control? How can you be certain that there isn't a second shooter? That the person you shot is no longer a threat?

Time scale. Police are pretty unlikely to be at the scene for minutes, at least. Someone calls 911. They tell Dispatch what's up. Dispatch then tells police. Police then drive there. That's not an instant process. Even if you're on a school campus with cops at the campus, how long to get from where they are to where the shooting is? It's possible they'll be right there right then through serendipity, but it's pretty unlikely. Your training is likely talking seconds, not minutes, but not communicating that context to you properly. Don't shove the gun in the holster the second you think you fired the last shot. That's not the same as stand there covering him for 5-10 minutes while sirens scream in.

Distance/Cover. So you drop Johnny Bad Guy. Do you have to stay in his line of sight? Do you have to stay in the open? Or can you remove yourself from his immediate area, take cover, and observe? If he gets back up, gets his gun, and starts looking for victims you've got time to react, do you not? If he just lays there, well, good.

Possibility of second shooter. Do you still hear shooting? Are you going to run around an active shooter scene with a gun in your hand at the ready? Are you going to keep watching his buddy while you hear shooting? Once again, would it not be better to be not there, or at least not in the open with a gun in your hand? What happens when you run into another plain clothes guy running around with his gun out? Do you foresee some confusion? What if he's panicky, a very real possibility, and demands you drop YOUR gun? What if you're heart is about 180bpm as well, what do you decide? From an ambush position you have time to observe and get more info before you make a decision....