armslist

[mtinner]

Been watching a ruger Blackhawk on armslist and I think I've found the one I want. How safe is it to purchase a gun on armslist and what do I have to look out for?

 

[MSS]

Been watching a ruger Blackhawk on armslist and I think I've found the one I want. How safe is it to purchase a gun on armslist and what do I have to look out for?

Dealing on Armslist can be very safe and easy, as long as you are careful and follow some simple rules. I have met many fantastic people through armslist and have found great deals. I find it best to always ask to speak with the buyer/seller on the phone. Tell the seller you have specific questions and would like to speak verbally. There is alot you can learn about a person in a 10 minute call. Meet in a public location, during the day, in a familiar part of town. If a seller will only agree to meet you at their house, or in some isolated area, best to avoid. I always chose to meet in LGS or Gander parking lots.

Be sure to ask the seller, beforehand, if they have any problem issuing a bill of sale and if they will provide you with their driver's license or CC permit.

If they are nice on the phone, agree to meet in a safe area, will issue a bill of sale and are comfortable providing you with their CC permit or DL, then, in my opinion, you'll be fine.

Hope that helps,
chris

 

[UNCLE HARLEY]

Dealing on Armslist can be very safe and easy, as long as you are careful and follow some simple rules. I have met many fantastic people through armslist and have found great deals. I find it best to always ask to speak with the buyer/seller on the phone. Tell the seller you have specific questions and would like to speak verbally. There is alot you can learn about a person in a 10 minute call. Meet in a public location, during the day, in a familiar part of town. If a seller will only agree to meet you at their house, or in some isolated area, best to avoid. I always chose to meet in LGS or Gander parking lots.

Be sure to ask the seller, beforehand, if they have any problem issuing a bill of sale and if they will provide you with their driver's license or CC permit.

If they are nice on the phone, agree to meet in a safe area, will issue a bill of sale and are comfortable providing you with their CC permit or DL, then, in my opinion, you'll be fine.

Hope that helps,
chris

+1

 

[mtinner]

Thanks for the advice.
This would be a long distance deal if it happens. The seller is in Wisconsin and I'm in Ohio so meeting them in person would be difficult. I did give the guy my phone number and email. I asked in the email for more information about the gun, payment method, and shipping but haven't heard back from him. What, in your opinion, would be the best payment method to be safe for both parties?

 

[Fordtough25]

State to state FFL so as long as the gun is as nice as it looks it should go pretty smooth. I like looking at stuff before I buy it but lots of people do great buying sight unseen!

 

[THE BIG SITT]

Do you guys only deal with those who will provide a BOS?

 

[MSS]

Do you guys only deal with those who will provide a BOS?

Absolutely. If the firearm is legitimate then the seller should have no problem providing a bill of sale. Keep in mind, if the firearm is stolen, or worse, had been used to commit a crime and you purchase without a BOS, just the simple fact of it being found in your possession will make you a suspect and you will be taken to court. Remember, the jury has no idea where or when you got the firearm (because in this case you will have no proof).

If you are found with a stolen firearm, or one that was used, lets say, to commit an armed robbery or homicide and you had enough foresight to collect a bill of sale, then the bill of sale is concrete evidence that you legally and unknowingly purchased a hot firearm, and were in no way associated with the crime.

You may be getting a great deal, but I'll spend a little bit more to play it safe.

 

[mikefraz]

Absolutely. If the firearm is legitimate then the seller should have no problem providing a bill of sale. Keep in mind, if the firearm is stolen, or worse, had been used to commit a crime and you purchase without a BOS, just the simple fact of it being found in your possession will make you a suspect and you will be taken to court. Remember, the jury has no idea where or when you got the firearm (because in this case you will have no proof).

If you are found with a stolen firearm, or one that was used, lets say, to commit an armed robbery or homicide and you had enough foresight to collect a bill of sale, then the bill of sale is concrete evidence that you legally and unknowingly purchased a hot firearm, and were in no way associated with the crime.

You may be getting a great deal, but I'll spend a little bit more to play it safe.

Not saying you're wrong. But do you have any proof of this actually happening? Just curious.

 

[MSS]

Not saying you're wrong. But do you have any proof of this actually happening? Just curious.

A five minute Google search returned these:

Second man says he got into trouble after unknowingly buying stolen gun : News : WACH.com

Man arrested, says he unknowingly purchased stolen handgun : News : WACH.com

In the second story, here is a quote: "Terry was charged with receiving stolen goods, but it was dropped after he showed a judge the receipt from his 2007 purchase."

There are many more stories and forum discussions regarding this on the internet. But in answer to your question: yes, stuff like this happens all the time. Welcome to the American Legal System. ALWAYS document your purchases, especially with firearms.

Best,
Chris

 

[seedubs1]

Be sure to ask the seller, beforehand, if they have any problem issuing a bill of sale and if they will provide you with their driver's license or CC permit.

If they are nice on the phone, agree to meet in a safe area, will issue a bill of sale and are comfortable providing you with their CC permit or DL, then, in my opinion, you'll be fine.

I would never do business with you. I don't leave my information written down for strangers. You aren't a business, and my information isn't protected. I don't want anyone from a random selling site (cragslist, armslist, etc...) being able to track me down and steal my stuff as they now know what I've purchased (in some cases, expensive firearms).

Also, it's not a requirement to provide a bill of sale if you're found to be in posession of a stolen firearm or one that was used in a crime. Indiana law does not require a bill of sale, FFL checks, etc... for personal sales. Would it help? Yes. But they aren't going to convict you just for being in posession (especially if you're claiming you purchased it after said crime) unless other evidence is against you.

OP, you're fine as long as you treat it like a craigslist purchase. Use some common sense and protect yourself. For the most part, I think armslist is relatively safe since everyone is dealing with firearms, and I'd say the majority of people biuying/selling OC or CC. Gun people aren't exactly the target for criminals. I'm personally more concerned when I go to a craigslist transaction.

Also, this is Indiana law I'm talking about for in state sellers/buyers only. Know your own state laws, or consult a lawyer. Purchases outside of state borders commonly require forms, FFL checks, etc... Don't skirt the law with firearm sales/purchases unless you want to end up serving jail time. BATFE frequents these websites, and has been known to inquire to see if you're trying to do illegal things.

Just remember, if it feels fishy, walk away.

 

[Informed Decision]

Soo, if the firearm were stolen or used during a crime , wouldn't it be confiscated & returned to the owner or locked up for evidence. I believe I would want something to go back on... Maybe be able to get my money back? Or is it too bad, so sad?

 

[seedubs1]

Yeah, it's the same as buying on craigslist. It's possible that it could be stolen. And you'd be out of luck monetarily if so.

Like I said, use your common sense. If it's fishy or too good to be true, it likely is.

You could also ask for the serial number and have your PD run it through their system to see if it's listed as a hot gun.

But like I said, requiring a bill of sale is not necessary, and many honest buyers/sellers (like me) will refuse to do business with someone requiring it.

You also stated that you're an OH resident wishing to purchase a WI firearm. You need to know the laws regarding that transaction. That's going to have to go through an FFL. So you'll have a record of purchasing the firearm at that date. The serial number will also be run through the system.

Soo, if the firearm were stolen or used during a crime , wouldn't it be confiscated & returned to the owner or locked up for evidence. I believe I would want something to go back on... Maybe be able to get my money back? Or is it too bad, so sad?

 

[MSS]

I would never do business with you. I don't leave my information written down for strangers. You aren't a business, and my information isn't protected. I don't want anyone from a random selling site (cragslist, armslist, etc...) being able to track me down and steal my stuff as they now know what I've purchased (in some cases, expensive firearms).

Also, it's not a requirement to provide a bill of sale if you're found to be in posession of a stolen firearm or one that was used in a crime. Indiana law does not require a bill of sale, FFL checks, etc... for personal sales. Would it help? Yes. But they aren't going to convict you just for being in posession (especially if you're claiming you purchased it after said crime) unless other evidence is against you.

OP, you're fine as long as you treat it like a craigslist purchase. Use some common sense and protect yourself. For the most part, I think armslist is relatively safe since everyone is dealing with firearms, and I'd say the majority of people biuying/selling OC or CC. Gun people aren't exactly the target for criminals. I'm personally more concerned when I go to a craigslist transaction.

Also, this is Indiana law I'm talking about for in state sellers/buyers only. Know your own state laws, or consult a lawyer. Purchases outside of state borders commonly require forms, FFL checks, etc... Don't skirt the law with firearm sales/purchases unless you want to end up serving jail time. BATFE frequents these websites, and has been known to inquire to see if you're trying to do illegal things.

Just remember, if it feels fishy, walk away.

I never said in my original posting that a bill of sale needs the seller's address and social security number. All it needs is the person's first and last name and a signature by both parties confirming that the sale was made. If you would not write you name on a piece of paper with the date of sale and firearm information, then I would avoid your firearm. But I, like you, would not provide my address or SS#.

Also, your statement about "they aren't going to convict you just simply by your having possession of the firearm" is entirely incorrect. A jury of nine simply needs to be convinced, beyond reasonable doubt, that you are the perpetrator of the crime in question. There is no statute, to my knowledge, that states that an individual cannot be prosecuted SOLELY on the fact that they are in possession of said firearm without a sales receipt. Is it required to have one by law? No - but all it will take is you being in possession of a firearm, you have no record of, and an eye-witness giving a false statement about the perpetrator that "kinda-sorta" looks like you, and they will make you hang. The justice system is incredibly flawed and you will be up against a couple guys who charge $150.00/hour to find someone to put in prison.

Again, what are the chances that this will happen to you? Not that great... But why risk all of that just to save $50.00 on a gun for the simple reason someone wont print their name on and sign a sales receipt?

Just my thoughts

 

[MSS]

Soo, if the firearm were stolen or used during a crime , wouldn't it be confiscated & returned to the owner or locked up for evidence. I believe I would want something to go back on... Maybe be able to get my money back? Or is it too bad, so sad?

Not necessarily... Consider this scenario: A firearm is stolen from person A by person B. Person B uses the firearm in a crime and DOES NOT leave the firearm at the scene and is never recovered by police. However, police collect spent shell casings from the scene of the crime. Person B later sells the firearm to person C without a sales receipt. On a routine traffic stop, a police officer collects person C's firearm and finds there was a "stolen firearms" claim reported by person A when their firearm was stolen. The police officer takes the firearm back for investigation and forensics finds that the casings found at the before-mentioned crime scene matching the pattern of the firearm. Now person C has a stolen firearm in their possession WHICH was used in a crime and DOES NOT have a receipt or any other proof of the purchase. Person C WILL GET CHARGED FOR HAVING STOLEN PROPERTY! The police will then begin collecting evidence against person C as they are now prime suspect in the crime in this scenario. All it will take is some other circumstantial evidence like accidental or false witness testimony, or cell phone records placing person C even remotely close to the scene of the crime that night, or maybe even an accidental lie during an investigation and they will have enough against Person C to take him to trial.

Again, how likely is it that this will happen to you? Not very... But it does happen, and why risk it?

 

[seedubs1]

Yes, and we're talking "beyond reasonable doubt." I'd like to see your source where someone was convicted solely based on being in posession of a weapon that was used in a crime, claiming they purchased it after the crime, and no other evidence was used to convict them.

You're going a bit overboard, MSS. Lots of us do transactions with no bill of sale, and I've yet to hear of anyone getting convicted based on your outlandish scenario.

And no, I'm not even going to sign something for a random person. You can go pretty far with someones signature.

If you are adamant about having the transaction documented, the only way I'd do that would be for the buyer to pay to have the transaction go through an FFL transfer.

 

[MSS]

Yes, and we're talking "beyond reasonable doubt." I'd like to see your source where someone was convicted solely based on being in posession of a weapon that was used in a crime, claiming they purchased it after the crime, and no other evidence was used to convict them.

You're going a bit overboard, MSS. Lots of us do transactions with no bill of sale, and I've yet to hear of anyone getting convicted based on your outlandish scenario.

And no, I'm not even going to sign something for a random person. You can go pretty far with someones signature.

If you are adamant about having the transaction documented, the only way I'd do that would be for the buyer to pay to have the transaction go through an FFL transfer.

Like I said, my scenario is not likely to happen, but it can. And as long as there is a possibility, even one so miniscule, why risk it? No, I have not heard of anyone getting convicted simply by being in possession of a stolen firearm without bill of sale. But once the police have someone who is suspect, they will begin digging for other information to use to convict you. Any notion otherwise is ENTIRELY false.

If a person used a knife in a murder, and the knife was found in the murderer's apartment with the victim's DNA on it, that is still not sufficient evidence, just like its not sufficient evidence if someone is in possession of a stolen firearm. They will build an entire case against you. Location during the time of the crime, witness statements ect ect... All it will take is misinformation and false accidental witness statement and they can have a case against you.

The likelihood of the scenario I presented is going far less "overboard" than the assertion that someone can and will steal your entire identity JUST by using your signature... If that were the case then you should probably stop signing your credit card receipts. You probably hand your signature over to 20+ people/week without even thinking about it.

 

[Tomc1947]

I have sold, and purchased, on Armslist. If the other party wants a BOS that's fine, but not necessary IMHO.
I save all E mails received about a purchase. Usually that includes their phone # and the email is documation that you purchased/sold the gun. I also copy the persons plate# when we meet.
I've never had a problem and have meet some good people.

 

[BigRed3588]

As far as the conversation between MSS and Seedubs, my job leads me to look at arrest records and sentencing literally every day. Theft/Receiving stolen property is hands down the most common crime I see people in prison for, and I've heard far more outlandish stories leading to incarceration than those MSS has set forth. It never hurts to CYA, but it can definitely hurt not to.

 

[farmerdan]

I normally just keep the emails and a copy of the ad. Never had a problem but just makes me feel better knowing I have proof of the purchase.

 

[JWAS]

Thanks for the advice.
This would be a long distance deal if it happens. The seller is in Wisconsin and I'm in Ohio so meeting them in person would be difficult. I did give the guy my phone number and email. I asked in the email for more information about the gun, payment method, and shipping but haven't heard back from him. What, in your opinion, would be the best payment method to be safe for both parties?

Since this is the case.... just make sure you have it sent to a local FFL.... trying to buy a gun from a different state without going through a FFL is a no no. Since I have never used armlist with out of state purchases, I am not sure how you should go about doing this....