An Overdue Discussion on .45 Auto

[Squid556]

What is it about 45 auto that has such a fire and ice grip on me? I'm a practical guy. I like Glocks and Hondas. I'd take a 308 over 6.5. I'd rather marry a woman who's better in the kitchen than the bed.



A Springfield 1911 45 was my first carry. And I hated it. Only carried on occasions because it was quite large and heavy. Rarely trained with it due to ammo cost. Only used it once to dispatch a coon on the deck. Swapped it for an XDM 9mm and I was happy.



The 45 auto cartridge to me on paper has nothing desirable. Its very inefficient both is construction and in ballistic performance. Its can be prone to bullet setback. Low capacity. Higher cost than it should be. Its absurdly heavy if you've ever moved a couple hundred rounds in a bag or something. Almost double the recoil of 9mm despite pushing about the same energy. Ive found many people carry it simply based on anecdotal and often overhyped information.

The idea of 45 auto in a Glock (or any polymer gun besides an HK) kinda disgusts me. But 1911s.... HAVE to be 45 in my mind. I can't tell you why, guess I'm not in control of my firearms fetish. But not only that, there's something special about having the two together. I can't describe to people just how much fun it is to shoot a nice 5 inch 1911 in "the lords caliber"

To me there's nothing practical about nor do I have a use for 45. Despite that I actually had to buy a Colt Govt Model in 45 auto just to satiate that unnatural itch... And I've never regretted it! I never spend money that fast. But when I saw this lookin back at me I chucked $850 at it like it was burning my pocket.



And here recently I'm looking into getting a chamber adapter for a shotgun. Going down through the list of all these wonderful and practical handgun chamberings ..... and the only thing that jumps out at me is the 45 auto. Got me again!



Why and how do I both love and hate it ?! Why have I had to fight the urge to rebarrel a mauser 98 in 45 auto? I shouldnt have to do that more than once. But here I am again for the third time talking myself out of that bad decision.



Ill get off this bipolar soap box now and go shoot some 45. But I'm curious if anyone else has fire and ice relationships with cartridges / firearms like I do.

 

[Expat]

Nicely done squid. And congrats on a beautiful pistol.

 

[Magyars]

45 ACP, my kind of round. Short, fat and slow but gets the job done!

 

[Bassat]

I like the 1911 because it is timelessly beautiful. There simply is no better looking handgun than properly outfitted .45 ACP 1911. Some S&W revolvers come close, but the king is JMB's original. I take a few exceptions to your statements about the .45 ACP round. Kicks twice as much as 9mm? I've had a few 1911s, and I agree that recoil is moderately aggressive. That recoil is more from the design of the gun than from the round it is launching. I had no idea of this until I rented a G21 at Kodiak. I put one box of 230gr ball through that worn out gun, then ran right out and bought a new one. Design matters. The G21 recoils like mouse farts compared to the 1911. I can put more rounds on target, faster, with my G21 than I can with my 9mm P365XL. Why? Because the recoil is less severe, and the G21 seems to magically put the sights back on target all by itself. I attribute that to grip angle. My other nit is 'the cost of ammo'. Shop around. .45 ACP ammo is available for 20-30% more than 9mm, if you spend the time to look for it, and are willing to buy in quantity.

 

[tomcat13]

Some interesting thoughts, Squid.
Thanks for sharing & Congrats on your latest purchase.
In my case when it comes to my Love affair with "The Lord's Caliber," it's because I consider myself Hopelessly Old School.
This particular JMB creation has always & will always have a special place in my heart.
I stick with Handguns chambered in this beloved caliber & so far-only have four. So far!
Haven't had any Trigger Time on the Longslide in a while, so Now you have me planning a trip to the Range.
Thanks again!

 

[Squid556]

Kicks twice as much as 9mm?

I think you’re absolutely right about certain mechanical characteristics having a large effect of felt recoil. I hear the complaint often about 9mm carbines having more recoil than people expected. Large mass of the bolt stopping. I figure a good portion of that felt recoil is mechanical and not so much of the bullet leaving barrel.

However speaking matter of fact …according to this with similar weight pistols shooting similar loads 9mm is around 3.8 ft/lb recoil and 45 being 7.9 ft/lb. Not exactly twice as much but i thought the claim was well based.

Handgun Recoil Table

My other nit is 'the cost of ammo'. Shop around. .45 ACP ammo is available for 20-30% more than 9mm

Sounds like you proved my point more?

It does open one more point I should have added to the OP. Reloading…..
I love to reload 45 auto. But I really don’t like loading 9. Truth is there isn’t much difference and I’m not certain why one is more enjoyable than the other. Maybe it’s the larger components being much easier for me to handle. Don’t topple over as easily on my bench.

 

[Bassat]

Agreed. Size and configuration of the gun matter as much in felt recoil as does caliber and load. With respect to cost, perspective is everything. I don't see a 20-30% difference as worth fussing over. Then again, I don't shoot 1,000 rounds a month, either. Reloading isn't for me. The time involved kills any cost incentive for me. Or, I'm just lazy. Paying for it seems much easier than actually doing it.

 

[Squid556]

Agreed. Size and configuration of the gun matter as much in felt recoil as does caliber and load. With respect to cost, perspective is everything. I don't see a 20-30% difference as worth fussing over. Then again, I don't shoot 1,000 rounds a month, either. Reloading isn't for me. The time involved kills any cost incentive for me. Or, I'm just lazy. Paying for it seems much easier than actually doing it.

You’re spot on with that. Not many things I load for where it’s actually a big savings worth the time.

If I was smart I’d just work an hour overtime to pay for factory ammo.

But instead I’d rather go home early and make ammo. Only really worth it cause I enjoy it

 

[92FSTech]

Like you, Squid, I have a weird relationship with the .45, although mine is more about a love affair with a particular gun, rather than the cartridge itself.

I know all the stats about the .45 vs 9mm debate. I've even shot .45 through cars just to see if there would be improvements in performance due to the heavier bullets. There were not. My work guns are all 9mm, its cheaper (occasionally they even give me some for free!), more capacity, less recoil, etc. etc. But I still carry a .45 on my own time.

My first .45 was a Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt/.45 ACP. I mainly bought it for the .45 Colt, but the ACP cylinder seemed like a nice addition which added some versatility. I think the idea was that you could shoot cheaper .45 ACP out of the same gun, but I reload both so the cost of ammo is a wash. I quickly discovered, though, that .45 ACP is a joy to shoot out of that gun. Recoil is light, the shorter rounds drop easily into the chambers through the loading gate, and ejection is very positive with the shorter cases. They fall right out. I bought it for the .45 Colt, but I find myself shooting it in ACP more often than not.

(it's the one on the left)

Then I needed a 1911, becasue who doesn't right? I ended up getting a decent deal on a Springfield Loaded. It was a good gun from the factory, but I like to tinker, and ended up replacing the controls and most of the internls with stuff from EGW and Harrison Designs. I made it what I wanted, and it's great fun on the range, but I'm not really a single-action guy when it comes to carry, so that's where it pretty much stays. Yeah, you can get them in 9mm, too, but there's just something about that .45.

Finally, the one that hooked me. I have always been a Sig guy, and a few years back I scored a deal on a P245 on gunbroker. I'd never shot one, or even handled one, but I wanted to try it. When it arrived, I immediately fell in love. I have long, skinny hands, and the longer-single-stack profile of the grip just fits me perfectly. It's long enough for all my fingers and palm to fit on the grip vertically, and the trigger reach is just right. Even more importantly, the weight and balance is perfect. I have a 228, 229, and 225, and none of them feels quite as good as my P245. It also just blends into my side in a holster, with the perfect amount of grip available to grab, yet not print under a T-Shirt. It's a very comfortable gun to carry.

The older folded-slide guns are getting harder to find parts for, and one day I stopped by the brand new Range USA in Mishawaka and they had two P220 Compacts on the shelf. The P220 Compact is basically a P245, but with some differences to the barrel lugs, and it uses a milled stainless slide instead of the older folded-steel style. It also has a rail, which I didn't really care about. Both guns looked to be about the same condition, both were listed at $575, but one came with two mags instead of one, so naturally I bought that one. An SRT kit and a new hammer strut later (the factory strut was a mess) and it became my new off-duty EDC companion, and has been ever since.

I realize that on paper it just doesn't make sense. Even with a full-size 8-round P220 Mag on my belt as a reload, I still only get 15 rounds, which is two less than I have in a P320 without a reload. There's no ballistic advantage, and it's a more expensive gun. But it caries and shoots beautifully. I scored the same on my qual with it this year as I did with my full-size, optic equipped P320 duty gun...100%.

I like the DA/SA trigger and exposed hammer for added safety in a CCW rig. I'm not getting sent to fights off-duty, so it's primary goal is to get me OUT of trouble if any should find me. It's comfortable and inobtrusive to carry, accurate and reliable, and I'm confident in my performance with it. It's just a darn good gun.

 

[warren5421]

It was my dad's fault!!!!! Started a trap line back in 1953 and dad did not have a .22 pistol so he handed a US Government prop Remington-Rand to this 8 year old incase a Bob Cat was in a trap. Carried a 1911 in .45 ACP for 50 plus years till I got a 2011 STI 10 mm. Recoil got my hands so now I carry a 1903 Colt Hammerless .32 ACP still Mr Browning design!

 

[CB1911]

A Springfield 1911 was also my first carry. I thought I was pretty good with it until I shot a coworkers Beretta 92 while we were at the old Shooting Match indoor range in Terre Haute. He was complaining about the lack of accuracy of the 92 and handed it to me. I had never handled a 92 nor even shot a 9mm. Cold turkey I shot a 5 round group into a super tight cluster at a modest range then gave it back to him. I surprised myself that I had just shot a better group than I had ever done with my Springfield 45acp. I knew right then that there were options out there!

Over the years I have owned and enjoyed a few more 45acp's and they eventually got sold off.Tried a Gold Cup, several 4506's, S&W 625 4", Marlin camp carbine, Colt officers, S&W 745, etc. Just never found any of them to be a keeper. If I had to pick one though to keep I would say the 4506. I wish I had tried out the Sig P220 though. It has always been the one that might have worked out if given the chance.

I did enjoy handloading the 45acp. It is easy and forgiving. Accurate loads seemed to be easy to work up and light handloads keep things pleasant.

Eventually I settled on 9mm and 38 special as the sweet spot for me. I just shoot them way better. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. A couple of years ago I attended the Kentucky Classic IDPA match. This was limited to Revolver and CDP (45acp) only.
Lots of great shooters signed up for CDP when they were used to 9mm. I knew my limitations and shot 38 special revolver with just enough over PF to be effective on steel. While some shooters obviously did well with CDP, there was also many shooters complaining afterwards about their performance with the 45acp over a long sanctioned match with many rounds downrange under pressure. I heard many "never again" etc. It was humbling. It was also humbling doing wheelgun reloads!

I'm glad we have as many choices as we do in firearms and ammunition these days. It is fun and fascinating to try as many as you can in your journey. It's also fun to find that sweet spot and get down to shooting!

 

[MrSmitty]

I carried a Llama .45 for years, it was actually the only handgun I had for years, I bought it because it was $200 (1982) and .45 was Gods caliber.. I've had various 1911's over the years, and I love the .45 ACP, but cost, and heaviness have caused me to carry smaller lighter gun, and calibers....but I will always love the forty five, maybe when finances allow I'll have another..I feel your pain Squid, and that is a nice collection!! love the Mauser!

 

[Basher]

I’m with you on many of your points. I, too, am a devoted 9mm shooter because of cost, capacity, recoil, etc. However, I do have one .45, a Springfield Loaded that started as a Black Stainless model and was then heavily worked over by a buddy back in AZ who did custom 1911 work as a hobby at the time. He replaced all the MIM internals with Ed Brown tool steel components, installed a medium length solid trigger, fitted an extended thumb safety that I had him shave down, an arched MSH, countersunk and bobbed the takedown pin, did a light carry bevel, and serrated the read of the slide to match the new Commander hammer I chose.

He also instructed me on how to do stippling, which I did myself (and which shows plenty of imperfections but I think it just gives the pistol character). We also replaced the FLGR with a GI setup, polished the feedramp, further lowered and flared the ejection port, verified the fit of the cam link and lugs, and fitted a new barrel bushing. Then he finished it off with a glass bead blast so it has a matte stainless finish. Basically we kept the slide, frame, and barrel and replaced everything else and hand fitted it all. The last thing we needed to do was get the sights replaced, but he was killed in the line of duty before we got to that point. It’s irreplaceable to me now, and I hope if we can have kids someday that I can pass it down.

The only other .45s I feel a small wanting for are a nice P220, a 4506, and a S&W 625. Besides that, I really have little interest in the caliber. Cost is the main reason, and I understand the increase isn’t astronomical as noted above, but a 20-30% increase per shot means I could shoot a significant amount more with 9mm over time. But if money were no factor, I guarantee I’d find a reason to own more, as I have nothing against the Lord’s Caliber, it just doesn’t fit my needs and situation as well as 9mm does.

 

[Dean C.]

My love affair with 45ACP started in childhood, I loved reading about the military and watching war movies so by default the 1911 has been my favorite pistol since I was 10, the only other gun I grew up wanting was an H&K USP because Richard Marcinko says they are the best.

Fast forward to 2013 and me turning 18, I am a skinny guy so single stack pistols were always the easiest for me to carry until the P365 came out. So a Commander or Officer sized 1911 gave me a gun I could carry and shoot very well. I got them all in 45acp because why not the extra +1 or +2 from the 9mm guns didn’t interest me.

Then the P365 came out and I got a Staccato and it’s all been downhill from there. The fact that 45ACP is not darn near double the cost of 9mm does not help either.

 

[Scott58]

Carried a Star PD .45 for almost 40 years in 4". Now that I'm older and have wrist issues I'm carrying a Browning .380. I like it but in the back of my mind its still a .380. Now I'm considering a Kimber or Springfield in 9mm 4". If it wasn't for my wrist I wouldn't be thinking about any of this.

 

[92FSTech]

I think you’re absolutely right about certain mechanical characteristics having a large effect of felt recoil. I hear the complaint often about 9mm carbines having more recoil than people expected. Large mass of the bolt stopping. I figure a good portion of that felt recoil is mechanical and not so much of the bullet leaving barrel.

My personal experience agrees with this observation. Not to derail the thread, but I built a 9mm AR fully expecting it to be a soft-shooting, flat-recoiling speed machine. I was unpleasantly surprised to learn that the bolt mass of that straight-blowback gun made its recoil characteristics even worse than a gas-operated rifle in .223. It wasn't like the recoil was painful or unmanageable or anything, but it wasn't what I expected and didn't meet my goals for the build. I replaced that straight-blowback rifle with a delayed-blowback gun that uses a more traditional rotating bolt and carrier, and the difference is night and day.

Like @Bassat pointed out with his G21 example, weapon design matters as much as the cartridge itself. My light, aluminum-framed compact Sigs are easier to shoot fast than my full-size, steel-framed 1911.

 

[Amishman44]

I think you’re absolutely right about certain mechanical characteristics having a large effect of felt recoil. I hear the complaint often about 9mm carbines having more recoil than people expected. Large mass of the bolt stopping. I figure a good portion of that felt recoil is mechanical and not so much of the bullet leaving barrel.

I concur...I hear all the stuff about 9mm being 'just as good as a .45' yet, for some reason, with a semi-automatic pistol, I shoot a .45 ACP much better (consistently more accurately) than I do a 9mm and always have. It's more comfortable to me, felt recoil is 'smoother' to me (feels more like a 'push' rather than a 'pop'), and follow-up shots, with a .45 ACP are quicker and more accurate than when shooting a 9mm. With the consideration that I shoot a lighter, 185 grain bullet in a smaller pistol.
My favorite .45 ACP to shoot is my Commander 1911 in .45 ACP, but I am wanting a Commander 1911 to test in comparison.
I would like to snag a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm, but will probably end up with a Ruger Light-Weight Commander for cost?
This one shoots 200 grain Federal XTP's like there's no tomorrow...boringly accurate!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I do love a good .45 Auto, and have been told by those who understand the physics better than I can approach that it's inherently more accurate than many other offerings. Not enough to make a difference in anything I'm doing, mind you, but it's there.

It lost a little of it's shine when I started playing with .45 Colt, though. And in my 'bad financial decisions' folder, I still have the desire to play with a .45 Super for no reason other than it sounds neat.

 

[BigMoose]

Nothing wrong with 45. Its a good solid choice, and still in use by a few LE agencies

Admittedly, outside 1911s the chambering seems to be waning in popularity, likely due to the cost of the larger rounds. And.. indeed because of the larger rounds.

Its still arguably the second most popular (non rimfire) Handgun caliber.

And of all the auto pistol calibers, its the easiest to shoot in a revolver if desired.

45s biggest advantage, is it doesn't require a bunch of weird ammo to be subsonic. Most anything off the shelf is SubSonic.. by the time you find the 9mm subsonic stuff.. well its about the same price as the cheap 45 FMJ lol

 

[Leadeye]

I've shot 45 ACP in a variety of guns, but the Broomhandle has to be the odd ball of the lot.