8 yrs of fear overcame w/ 22LR! What is next? LCP in 380?

[doddg]

Well let's just hope your crystal ball is right about the type of defensive encounter that may await you. I will continue to carry something that is more appropriate for a wider array of situations, since I've yet to find a fortune cookie that mentions whether it's my day to need more than the bare minimum. A S&W Shield Plus holds double to almost triple the number of more effective rounds, has real sights, carries as easily and is far easier to hit with than any snubby.

Because we all know that inncoent people that aren't directly involved in criminal activity never get caught in bad situations, right? Good luck with your 3 shots/3 feet/3 seconds BS. In fact, if we are talking "outliers" when choosing defensive equipment, why don't we talk about how much of an outlier it is to even need a handgun in public? Maybe you should trade the LCR for a rape whistle, since the average number of shots needed by an American citizen in public each day must be approaching zero. As a bonus, I think you can even take the whistle onto the plane and don't need to visit an airport restroom.

And I'm not telling you to carry an LCR or disputing that the Shield is better for *you*. But you aren't everyone.

If you want to talk outliers and stats, look at the entire picture.

Guess how many people in Marion County shot a bad guy in self defense this year. Now guess how many people shot themselves or others accidentally with a self loading pistol due to improper clearing. Would you care to guess how many people lost when presenting a non-functioning handgun? Safety on, round not chambered, or just didn't go bang? So do you just ignore that when giving advice to someone who will be a gun owner but not a 'gun person'?

Nothing to do with a crystal ball, just a lot of exposure to reality and paying attention. I find that revolvers lose a lot of hypothetical fights on the Internet but do much better in the real world. And people seldom shoot themselves with them and the go bang on that most important first shot more reliably.

Context matters.

Good discussion!
I appreciate both viewpoints presented.
It reflects my own journey in figuring out what is adequate & reasonable.
I'm a revolver fan & started out with J frames in my pocket decades ago before I even knew you should always put it in a pocket holster.
4-5 yrs ago I still carried in an ankle holster (or in a pocket holster) for years but with arthritis spreading insidiously over the years I had to stop that practice.
It began one day when Areoflyer asked me while over at his house why I was doing that.
He mentioned his Glock 19 in his IWB holster that I couldn't even tell he was wearing.
That opened my eyes to other possibilities.
Yes, I was that uninformed.

My SW Shield Plus PC is everything I've searched for in the past 5 yrs.
I still have a little Kahr CM9 for when I need minimalist printing even though it's half the capacity.
I even have an "inbetween" size of the Taurus G4, which has turned out to be my workhorse in semi-auto CC.
I also have 5 & 6 round revolvers b/c of the benefits.
Ultimate CC for me is Shield Plus in IWB & J frame in pocket holster.

 

[mmpsteve]

...
So I'd rather they have something they can hit with even if it's just 5 shots than nothing at all.
They are confident with their revolvers and feel safe.

Assuming they work as a team, let's see: 2 x 5 shots of hot lead, that can find their mark, with experienced users.. two sets of eyes to cover all the periphery and each other's backsides.

Yeah, I'll take those odds. Good on them for finding what works for them.

.

 

[Bugzilla]

Well be shooting tomorrow. I’ll shoot my wife’s 22 LCP and my LCP Max and report back.

Shot the LCP 22, my LCP Max and my friends Sig 9 mm. The LCP 22 has virtually no recoil. It did not like the Federal Range pack ammo at all. There is a distinct difference firing the Punch ammo. Not loud, but a noticeable different sound and a minute increase in recoil. The recoil on the Max for me is not a problem at all. Not sure what ammo I was shooting, but it was not a defense ammo, just some cheap stuff for the range. My friends Sig was definitely larger than my Max, but still in the conceal carry size. Didn’t get the model number. The recoil was the same as my Max, but the sound was definitely louder. Didn’t notice any muzzle flash during the early afternoon shooting.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah, no. I'm not giving advice to a new shooter with the assumption that they are going to be incompetent with all but the most idiot-proof of equipment. In fact, I'm particularly giving advice to the OP, who from their post content, appears to know quite a bit more about firearms and shooting than the typical newbie. Talking about different models, calibers, muzzle energy, handing concerns, etc. And the original concern is flash and noise (for the umpteenth time), not whether you see dead people with extendo mags.

Apologies to the OP for the pissing context, I've given my advice and reasoning. I yield the floor to the man who obviously is privy to every defensive encounter on earth.

I meet up with folks on occasion. I'd be happy to buy you a gyro, maybe with @KellyinAvon since I owe him one anyway. There's no pissing contest on my end, I'm simply telling you and others what years of dealing with the reality of these encounters has shown me vs what hypotheticals people come up with and answering specific questions. I'm pretty comfortable with knowing what I know and what I don't know in this arena.

In case you forgot, you posted: "To devote training time to an obsolete platform...why?" and I responded, as well as to the notion that short stroking the trigger was some massive issue to preclude the LCR as a carry piece. Note you can short stroke a semi auto as well, pulling the trigger before it's moved far forward enough to reset. The fix is the same in both instances, let the trigger fully reset and pull again. Revolvers have their place still, as do semi-autos.


If you're interested, PM me your contact info. Or, PM @KellyinAvon as a neutral party if he's willing to facilitate. If not, I understand. Not everyone likes gyros.

 

[Amishman44]

Route 45 posted almost word for word what I was going to say. Smaller guns with shorter barrels tend to have more felt recoil and larger flashes. The P365 would be a good choice as would a Beretta 85 Cheetah.

I concur with the Beretta 380 Cheetah...it's a medium / small sized pistol chambered in .380 acp, that's small enough to conceal fairly easily, yet large enough to get a great grip on it and the felt recoil from .380 acp is moderately diminished by the size of the Beretta Cheetah.
The Beretta Model 85 Cheetah was my wife's first handgun way back in 2003 when we first got married. She traded it off for a Glock 26 when she wanted to bump up to a 9mm and is still the pistol that she regrets trading off the most!

 

[Amishman44]

My EDC as of now is LCP II lite rack in 22LR because it’s easy to conceal, and not overly loud. I consider myself to be fairly accurate, for my first go with it. A lot more than I was with a 380 or 9mm.

I went shooting, this past weekend, with an older buddy, who's been struggling with arthritis and is no longer shooting his Taurus .38, his Taurus PT-140, or his Beretta 21 Bobcat anymore...and after shooting several different .22lr pistols, he selected the Ruger SR-22 to be his primary concealed carry pistol. Some will scoff at his choice of .22lr, but he shot the SR-22 very comfortably, very consistently, and very accurately...all three of which are factors in selecting an EDC pistol. He wanted a belt-carry pistol, not a pocket carry pistol, and the SR-22 meets that criteria for him as well! Select what you shoot well, not what everyone else tells you that you should carry!

 

[snorko]

I think the straight blowback design of the Cheetah makes the felt recoil worse than a 9mm 92 compact

I've never directly compared the two but that is a very good point. I once had a Beretta Tomcat .32 and a Keltec P32 at the range. You would think the heavier metal frame Beretta would be gentler but the Keltec, with its locked breach style barrel was significantly lighter in recoil.

 

[Jenn]

I’ve never owned a revolver, but I have a fat compact beretta in 9mm that I’ve practiced on and off again with dummy rounds since about 2016 or so. I’ve practiced with fake malfunctions and it did help. I felt more prepared to handle malfunctions when at the range (which I’ve encountered stove pipes, double feeds, and failures to eject just at my last range trip.) I tried the CCI 710 FPS ammo in my 22 with a flash can and knew that it wasn’t going to eject with them.. not really the pistols fault lol. It even says on the box that it might not cycle in semi autos.

I like DA/SA hammer fired pistols but I can see how striker fired, or even internal hammer fired pistols can be more concealable for carry.
At the moment, I would say that I am the most comfortable with hammer fired pistols(DA/SA with decockers, then SAO cocked and locked), and then striker fire with safeties. I’ve practice drawing and disengaging the safeties on both the beretta and the Lcp.. which my thumb on my dominant hand can reach on both.
I could learn how to work a revolver, but I primarily like pistols with double stack mags for the grip width and capacity. My hand size is average in general with piano fingers, but larger for a woman.

There’s only been a few guns that I couldn’t rack and they are the mouse guns with flip barrels.. and some of the old small guns in rarer calibers.

I chose the Lcp in 22 despite knowing that the grip isn’t ideal because I knew 22 wasn’t going to push my recoil limit.
It isn’t fun shooting for a long time but as far as I’ve heard from a lot of people, their carry guns aren’t always fun to shoot for long periods of time, but will perform when they need it to (with consistent training).
I ordered a talon grip sheet and will put a little cut out around the frame for my left thumb to see if it helps me manage the flip with the stingers.. and anything after a few rounds.

I can feel the difference between different 22 cartridges so I am worried that I will be recoil sensitive after all.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I can feel the difference between different 22 cartridges so I am worried that I will be recoil sensitive after all.

Practice, practice, practice. You may be uncomfortable at first. But stick with it. Eventually you will get used to it and your comfort level will increase . (Its not like you are shooting a 44 magnum or 454 casul )

in time you'll be shooting like this girl.



Oh, and dont try to go too small in the current 22. Eventually you'll get slow enough that you wont have enough power to get through a heavy jacket, let alone get deep enough to destroy vital organs. Translation: You'll just **** them off. LOL

 

[Jenn]

Shot the LCP 22, my LCP Max and my friends Sig 9 mm. The LCP 22 has virtually no recoil. It did not like the Federal Range pack ammo at all. There is a distinct difference firing the Punch ammo. Not loud, but a noticeable different sound and a minute increase in recoil. The recoil on the Max for me is not a problem at all. Not sure what ammo I was shooting, but it was not a defense ammo, just some cheap stuff for the range. My friends Sig was definitely larger than my Max, but still in the conceal carry size. Didn’t get the model number. The recoil was the same as my Max, but the sound was definitely louder. Didn’t notice any muzzle flash during the early afternoon shooting.

Thank you!

I haven’t tried either of those 22 cartridges but I think I just got a box of the punch to try out.
I used Remington thunderbolt So I’m not sure how comparable that is to the federal range ammo.

I can tell you that I get some visible muzzle flip when using stingers on the Lcp, but not much on the larger 22, which I think they may reach up to 1100 fps out of the short barrel and not 1600+.
It’s possible that I need help on my grip.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Oh, and if I HAD to carry a 22 for defense, Id use CCI mini mags. they just always go boom. Every other round (even cci stingers) have too much QC issues and tend to have more failure to fire issues. (at best they require another strike, or worst, they never fire)

And I ve had the worst time with anything Remington. In my experience, they have up to a 10% failure rate. I dont think I have ever not walked away from the range with at least 5 dead rounds.

 

[nonobaddog]

I felt more prepared to handle malfunctions when at the range (which I’ve encountered stove pipes, double feeds, and failures to eject just at my last range trip.)

This kind of raised a flag for me. Something isn't right when you are having multiple failure types like that. I would suspect the ammo or else something isn't right with the pistol or magazines.

 

[Jenn]

Oh, and dont try to go too small in the current 22. Eventually you'll get slow enough that you wont have enough power to get through a heavy jacket, let alone get deep enough to destroy vital organs. Translation: You'll just **** them off. LOL

I picked up some different boxes to compare with the stingers. Aguila Interceptor? And supermaximum… and I think the Fed. Punch.
CCI has been harder to find.

Right now I have mini mags loaded because I was the most accurate with those right before I left the range.

This kind of raised a flag for me. Something isn't right when you are having multiple failure types like that. I would suspect the ammo or else something isn't right with the pistol or magazines.

About how many rounds should you go before cleaning?
I had a few stove pipes with the thunderbolts when I started. Towards the end when I was testing out the different hollow points is when I had a few failures. I think at that point it had 300-350 rounds through it in total, without cleaning. I cleaned it the day after the last range visit though.
I figured it might still being broke in too?
Within the last 5 rounds of stingers, one casing hit me in the face which hadn’t happened up til that point.

The first day it had no failures, even with stingers. Probably put 100 rounds through it that day.

 

[Cameramonkey]

As for cleaning, it depends on the gun.

Ive got 22s I havent cleaned in MANY MANY rounds. Or my Ruger 22/45 I can see a noticeable decrease in accuracy after 100 rounds or so.

Give it a good cleaning and see if that helps. It shouldnt hurt.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Also, you can buy cci direct if necessary. orders over $100 ship free.

Shop products in CCI today | CCI Ammunition

CCI Ammunition

www.cci-ammunition.com

 

[Jaybird1980]

Thank you!

I haven’t tried either of those 22 cartridges but I think I just got a box of the punch to try out.
I used Remington thunderbolt So I’m not sure how comparable that is to the federal range ammo.

I can tell you that I get some visible muzzle flip when using stingers on the Lcp, but not much on the larger 22, which I think they may reach up to 1100 fps out of the short barrel and not 1600+.
It’s possible that I need help on my grip.

Have you ever taken a training course? That can help you with grip, stance etc., and that can help you mitigate recoil better.

I would also say to not try to rush to something else just because. A well placed shot is still better than a miss. My wife has settled on a 380 as that's the largest caliber that she shoots good. She can shoot larger calibers, but not nearly as well. No shame in knowing your limits, and the more rounds you put downrange your limits may change.

Enjoy the .22 and focus on your skills.

 

[Amishman44]

Oh, and if I HAD to carry a 22 for defense, Id use CCI mini mags. they just always go boom. Every other round (even cci stingers) have too much QC issues and tend to have more failure to fire issues. (at best they require another strike, or worst, they never fire)

And I ve had the worst time with anything Remington. In my experience, they have up to a 10% failure rate. I dont think I have ever not walked away from the range with at least 5 dead rounds.

Bingo...and well said!

CCI Mini-Mags are the most reliable in rim-fired caliber ammunition and are well worth the cost to carry and shoot!
Remington Thunderbolts are about the dirtiest ammunition one can shoot and you'll be required to clean your firearm after shooting the Remington ammo.

I've always been a big advocate of carrying a firearm that you can get a solid grip on a) in case you actually have to use it and b) so you're less likely to lose your grip on it (aka, drop it) should you find yourself scurrying around or crawling while seeking shelter...

My currently favorite semi-auto .22lr pistol is the Beretta 92 in .22lr. It's lightweight aluminum slide makes for an easier carrying pistol, weight-wise, and it's 5" barrel makes for a very accurate pistol! If you're already familiar with the Beretta 92 set-up, the .22lr might be a good fit for you, functionality wise???
It's just a suggestion...but if you ever get a chance to shoot one, you'll see what I mean? Best of luck!

 

[Born2vette]

I picked up some different boxes to compare with the stingers. Aguila Interceptor? And supermaximum… and I think the Fed. Punch.
CCI has been harder to find.

my local Walmart has pretty consistently had CCI mini mag and SV and occasionally HP rounds as well.

In my old Ruger standard Thunderbolts and AutoMatch occasionally have FTF and Stove pipes but I ran a couple if boxes of Fed Punch through it which has been 100% reliable in that pistol. 22LR can sometimes have difficulty cycling some autoloaders even when clean and well oiled.

I am on the northside and would meet at a public range and let you try some of my larger pistols in 9mm if you would like. I am a CZ fan and carry a 75 Compact PCR (my favorite) a lot of the time (also a sig P365).

Whatever you end up with down the road do not discount how a grip sleeve can change the way the pistol feels when shooting.

 

[Amishman44]

For me, it is not the muzzle flip...it is the sound (even doubling up on ear pro) and the muzzle flash. I do not even like seeing lightning at night from the window, and I will put on ear muffs when there’s loud thunder.
I am light and sound sensitive, which I believe I can work through to a reasonable extent with time.
9mm rounds are too flashy and way too loud for me right now.

Hearing (sound sensitivity) and sight sensitivity (flash) concerns are very valid concerns when it comes to firearms, especially in low / no light shooting including personal defense scenarios.
And you're honest about it so it's a working / adjustment situation...
I'm not sound sensitive, but I do wear foam ear plugs under my muffs whenever I know I will be shooting and, for brighter lights, some sort of tinted lens glasses might help...
In athletics, a blue tinted lens tens to cut the bright sunlight sufficient to make athletic performance easier while not 'darkening' fine sight too much (aka, results in a more 'clear' sight picture rather than simply darken it.)
Maybe see if you can find some blue tinted lens safety glasses to diminish the bright 'flash' associated with muzzle flash with shorter barreled firearms?
Good luck!

 

[mmpsteve]

Oh, and if I HAD to carry a 22 for defense, Id use CCI mini mags. they just always go boom. Every other round (even cci stingers) have too much QC issues and tend to have more failure to fire issues. (at best they require another strike, or worst, they never fire)

And I ve had the worst time with anything Remington. In my experience, they have up to a 10% failure rate. I dont think I have ever not walked away from the range with at least 5 dead rounds.

Yep, Mini-mags or CCI Velocitors. I like the Velocitors. I quit buying Remington and Winchester years ago. Too much garbage rounds by both of them.

OP, no ones gonna enjoy getting shot with a 40 grain hollow point going roughly 1000 fps, out of your longer barrel. Just make sure your pistol goes bang every time with whatever round you choose. The 22 you can shoot well is going to be better than the larger caliber, unless you can get comfortable with the better caliber.

.