22LR, what happened this time, they are everywhere

[nonobaddog]

Excellent - in that case you would be positively contributing to the supply, relieving demand, and placing downward pressure on the market clearing price. I would (and have) done the same. However, I do not condemn others for taking a different approach. I tend to hold terms like 'morally ugly' back for the rare occasions where they are truly applicable. Otherwise they lose their meaning and we start to run out of words to use when evil really shows its face.

This is true - there are much, much, much worse things than price gouging. But it still isn't pretty.

 

[maxwelhse]

While I agree that this is how a free market functions (very well stated Johny5 BTW), in this instance I think what sticks in many peoples craw is that it seems to be the same internet retailer each time. They could at least pass around the "high water mark" duties

And CtD seems to be one of, if not the, first one to do it every time.

I'm all good with the free market sorting itself out and knowing my place in it. My place is not to support them because I think they're a pack of scumbags. Other people can do what they want.

 

[johny5]

This is true - there are much, much, much worse things than price gouging. But it still isn't pretty.

I'd like the opportunity to try to change your mind on that.

High prices are market signals. When they occur, they are an indication to those in the market to assume the capital costs to increase their production and for those on the margin of the market to enter. The higher the prices and the longer they are sustained, the stronger the signal. The free market is so effective that we are shocked to go the store, any store, and see shelves laid bare by demand. It is an experience so rare that it rattles us. For those in systems that do not allow for such price signals to be sent and for the market to respond, they are accustomed to bare shelves. Anyone who has traveled to a centrally-planned, state-run economy can attest to this fact.

So, since these signals restore balance to the demand curve and help ensure that the bare shelves we see are rare and short-lived - I think they are beautiful.

Ok - let me have it

 

[nonobaddog]

I'd like the opportunity to try to change your mind on that.

High prices are market signals. When they occur, they are an indication to those in the market to assume the capital costs to increase their production and for those on the margin of the market to enter. The higher the prices and the longer they are sustained, the stronger the signal. The free market is so effective that we are shocked to go the store, any store, and see shelves laid bare by demand. It is an experience so rare that it rattles us. For those in systems that do not allow for such price signals to be sent and for the market to respond, they are accustomed to bare shelves. Anyone who has traveled to a centrally-planned, state-run economy can attest to this fact.

So, since these signals restore balance to the demand curve and help ensure that the bare shelves we see are rare and short-lived - I think they are beautiful.

Ok - let me have it

Even if you were really out of toilet paper?

 

[johny5]

Even if you were really out of toilet paper?

OK - that didn't go how I expected it to...

 

[WebSnyper]

OK - that didn't go how I expected it to...

Now that's funny.

I along with you appreciate the good debate. I consider myself very free market as well. Govt interference drives strange market behaviors that don't typically help the larger economy, etc and drive specific interests, etc.
I can fully see that forcing the guy with all the hand sanitizer out of the market and him keeping it in his garage is doing no one any good currently because it is neither going to those who need it nor those who are willing to pay for it (though I think he was shut down by Amazon, which is again their playground, and they can do as they see fit with it). Funny thing is, from the story I read about it, he drove to tons of surrounding communities, cleaned them out and now he'll likely have to sell locally, since he doesn't have a cheap market conduit infrastructure in Amazon any more. He took a risk, it paid off for a bit, and if he puts his mind to it, he'll still make a good bit of $ I'm guessing.

 

[KJQ6945]

This is true - there are much, much, much worse things than price gouging. But it still isn't pretty.

Sometimes it is pretty. This is the point that many people miss. When a disaster hits a local area, such as a tornado, a flood or a hurricane, it strips away local resources, either through consumption, or just being destroyed.

With anti price gouging laws employed by most liberal states, the hardship is prolonged indefinitely. The laws generally forbid a product being sold for more than the price was before the disaster. As a result, instead of having new, more expensive supplies trucked in, the disaster area gets nothing.

There is a story that’s pretty easy to find on the web, about a guy that was arrested for price gouging after a disaster. Short version, disaster hits an area, people will be without power for weeks. A guy halfway across the country sees an opportunity to help the people in need, and possibly make some cash. He takes vacation from his job, rents a truck then buys every generator he can in his local area. Trucks them to the affected area, and sells them for more than he paid. The people were getting generators, to restore their power and save themselves. The guy was making money. The people in need of the power would have paid more than he was asking, because they NEEDED the power.

Guy was arrested, generators, truck, etc were all impounded. People got no power, now, they lose all of their food. Good Samaritan was in jail, spent lord knows how much of his own time, and own money, and probably never recovered.

This is what happens when fools write laws based on emotional ignorance. It’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of stupidity.

Price gouging is a beautiful thing when the nanny .gov stays out of it.
If this guy had been left alone, he would have sold the first batch of generators quickly, used his cash to buy more, and made a second or third trip. He would have told his friends, they would have trucked in supplies. Each truckload lessons the demand. As the market catches up, price comes down. Before you know it, the crisis is over.

Price gouging is a made up term just like assault rifle.

 

[johny5]

KJQ6945 - You are my spirit animal.


What? Why did it get so quiet in here?

 

[KJQ6945]

KJQ6945 - You are my spirit animal.


What? Why did it get so quiet in here?

Your spirit animal is a jackass? Does this say more about you or me?

 

[johny5]

 

[nonobaddog]

Sometimes it is pretty. This is the point that many people miss. When a disaster hits a local area, such as a tornado, a flood or a hurricane, it strips away local resources, either through consumption, or just being destroyed.

With anti price gouging laws employed by most liberal states, the hardship is prolonged indefinitely. The laws generally forbid a product being sold for more than the price was before the disaster. As a result, instead of having new, more expensive supplies trucked in, the disaster area gets nothing.

There is a story that’s pretty easy to find on the web, about a guy that was arrested for price gouging after a disaster. Short version, disaster hits an area, people will be without power for weeks. A guy halfway across the country sees an opportunity to help the people in need, and possibly make some cash. He takes vacation from his job, rents a truck then buys every generator he can in his local area. Trucks them to the affected area, and sells them for more than he paid. The people were getting generators, to restore their power and save themselves. The guy was making money. The people in need of the power would have paid more than he was asking, because they NEEDED the power.

Guy was arrested, generators, truck, etc were all impounded. People got no power, now, they lose all of their food. Good Samaritan was in jail, spent lord knows how much of his own time, and own money, and probably never recovered.

This is what happens when fools write laws based on emotional ignorance. It’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of stupidity.

Price gouging is a beautiful thing when the nanny .gov stays out of it.
If this guy had been left alone, he would have sold the first batch of generators quickly, used his cash to buy more, and made a second or third trip. He would have told his friends, they would have trucked in supplies. Each truckload lessons the demand. As the market catches up, price comes down. Before you know it, the crisis is over.

Price gouging is a made up term just like assault rifle.

When people are faced with a catastrophe they can become desperate for some product. This gives the people that have that product an opportunity to show their greed and their moral makeup. Some respond well and some others not so much.

It is all a matter of degree.
Selling at a loss is charity
Selling at a profit is business
Selling at an obscene profit is gouging

 

[bwframe]

Where do you draw the line between providing a product that people are in desperate need of and taking advantage of folks in desperate need?

 

[Joniki]

On the other side of this coin, after Katrina hit, FEMA was giving out generators. People were hoarding them and then selling them way below what they cost. The same thing happened with MRE's. Case upon case of MRE's were given out and the people sold them on Ebay.

Sometimes it is pretty. This is the point that many people miss. When a disaster hits a local area, such as a tornado, a flood or a hurricane, it strips away local resources, either through consumption, or just being destroyed.

With anti price gouging laws employed by most liberal states, the hardship is prolonged indefinitely. The laws generally forbid a product being sold for more than the price was before the disaster. As a result, instead of having new, more expensive supplies trucked in, the disaster area gets nothing.

There is a story that’s pretty easy to find on the web, about a guy that was arrested for price gouging after a disaster. Short version, disaster hits an area, people will be without power for weeks. A guy halfway across the country sees an opportunity to help the people in need, and possibly make some cash. He takes vacation from his job, rents a truck then buys every generator he can in his local area. Trucks them to the affected area, and sells them for more than he paid. The people were getting generators, to restore their power and save themselves. The guy was making money. The people in need of the power would have paid more than he was asking, because they NEEDED the power.

Guy was arrested, generators, truck, etc were all impounded. People got no power, now, they lose all of their food. Good Samaritan was in jail, spent lord knows how much of his own time, and own money, and probably never recovered.

This is what happens when fools write laws based on emotional ignorance. It’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of stupidity.

Price gouging is a beautiful thing when the nanny .gov stays out of it.
If this guy had been left alone, he would have sold the first batch of generators quickly, used his cash to buy more, and made a second or third trip. He would have told his friends, they would have trucked in supplies. Each truckload lessons the demand. As the market catches up, price comes down. Before you know it, the crisis is over.

Price gouging is a made up term just like assault rifle.

 

[nonobaddog]

Yes, it is a fuzzy line. However it becomes more obvious the further you get from the fuzzy part.

 

[johny5]

Yes, it is a fuzzy line. However it becomes more obvious the further you get from the fuzzy part.

Beautifully stated. Consider this quote stolen.

 

[johny5]

Where do you draw the line between providing a product that people are in desperate need of and taking advantage of folks in desperate need?

Within the confines of this discussion, I would say that this distinction lies in the ability of the seller to assess the need of those to which they are selling. We cannot apply the same reasoning to CTD or to FEMA that we would to ourselves as individuals. One is a private enterprise who has what I believe is an obligation not to provide an arbitrage opportunity to the nameless, faceless purchasers on their platform. The second is a government agency ill-equipped to perform any sort of means-testing in a time of crisis.

The standard for the individual is different than that of an enterprise operating at the degree of remove required for an online retailer or a governmental body. I believe we do ourselves a disservice to apply any standard applicable to one directly to the other without an honest discussion about their differences.

 

[rosejm]

It is all a matter of degree.
Selling at a loss is charity
Selling at a profit is business
Selling at an obscene profit is gouging

Profit and loss can be easily understood.

Now, who's saying what is "obscene"?
Is this another "I know it when I see it" thing? <squints>

You may be surprised at the profits normally in place, and shocked at their size for some foreseeable future.
US manufacturers are not falling over themselves to retool and start producing "essential supplies" for this crisis. There are HUGE profits to be made for them.

Only difference is that the gougers are taking private money, offered freely as an exchange of like value.
Those manufacturers are taking public money (our taxes), given away by Uncle Sugar with no regard to value or oversight.

 

[KJQ6945]

Where do you draw the line between providing a product that people are in desperate need of and taking advantage of folks in desperate need?

Neither you, nor the nanny state government should draw that line. The guy with the cash, that NEEDS it gets to decide how much he is willing to spend. No one else.

Everyone has a different level of need. Let’s dive into this a little deeper. We will stick with the generator concept.

Man 1 has a 30 pack of Bush beer, 2 packs of hot dogs, and some leftovers in his refrigerator.

Man 2 has a fully stocked refrigerator, a side of beef, and whole hog in his deep freeze.

Man 3 has a wife on some kind of medical equipment that requires power to keep her functioning.

The level of need varies from person to person. Man 1 isn’t willing to pay wholesale for a generator. Man 2 has a sizable investment to protect. He might be good with twice retail. Man 3 would trade you his new Ferrari for a generator, if that’s what was needed to keep his wife alive.

Don’t want to buy a generator from the traveling salesman? Don’t, it’s really that simple. Call him greedy, call him immoral, call him whatever you want, but he’s not forcing anyone to buy a generator. While you wait the three weeks for the power to come back on, rest well knowing that the .gov will be there next week to save you.

There is no such thing as price gouging. Think you can get it cheaper? Shop elsewhere. Need it now, pay the man, and learn from your mistake.

 

[KJQ6945]

How about another hypothetical example people? We still keep getting emotional responses, like immoral, and greedy. Put your feelings aside, and let’s get out our calculators. (All numbers are made up)

Horrible tornado in Nashville. 50,000 roofs are damaged. There are 600 licensed roofing contractors in the metro Nashville area. You got a quote last month from your contractor buddy for a new roof. Price was $10K. After the tornado you call him up, and tell him you want that $10k roof, tomorrow. He laughs at you. Tells you he will be there in three years. Supply and demand is real.

How long will it take 600 contractors to do 50,000 roofs? Your house will fall down before they get to you.

As the demand surpasses the supply, the price goes up, sometimes a lot. Increased demand will bring contractors in from across the country. They come to make more money. They will have increased expenses. They will have to stay in motels, be away from their families, eat out constantly. They make sacrifices in order to make more money. Call it greedy, sure. They call it buying braces, or paying for college tuition, or buying a new truck to get ahead.

In short order, all the work is completed, and normal pricing is restored. Capitalism works!

 

[WebSnyper]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KJQ6945 again.

Somebody rep him please?