Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[DragonGunner]

Not really sure it was a Russian missile to be honest. Given the fact Oleksiy Arestovych(in the top 3 for Zelisnki's "cabinet" and main advisor)stated it was Ukrainian countermeasures that hit the building(said this on live TV and again on his own Youtube channel). Of course that did not go over well with the public or zelenski.

He was called a traitor. Now he has resigned(likely to never be seen again).

Zelensky adviser resigns after blaming Ukraine for Dnipro apartment bombing

An adviser to the office of Ukrainian President Voldoymyr Zelensky submitted his resignation Tuesday following public backlash to his remarks suggesting a Russian missile attack that killed 44…

thehill.com

A air defense missile wouldn’t do that much damage would it? So let’s say he got it wrong and it was Russian. He admits a mistake but gets the ax anyways. Meanwhile Russia says they don’t harm civilians… that’s a joke.

 

[smokingman]

A air defense missile wouldn’t do that much damage would it? So let’s say he got it wrong and it was Russian. He admits a mistake but gets the ax anyways. Meanwhile Russia says they don’t harm civilians… that’s a joke.

No where near the 250,000 you said. 9000 civilians in almost a year of fighting. That is not intentionally killing civilians. Compare that number to Iraq or even Bosnian US inflicted civilian casualties in the first week of our involvements during those conflicts. They clearly are not targeting civilians intentionally.

Where did you get the 250,000 civilian casualties number?
As of January 17,2023 the official number from the Ukrainian government is just over 9000 total per Ukrainian presidential aide Andriy Yermak at Davos for WEF(yes today*side note he was there with First Lady of Ukraine Olena Zelenska,who spoke right after he did).

Russia’s war in Ukraine has killed ‘more than 9,000 civilians’ ​

Presidential aide announces grim toll at the WEF in Davos as Ukraine’s first lady appeals for support.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[DragonGunner]

No where near the 250,000 you said. 9000 civilians in almost a year of fighting. That is not intentionally killing civilians. Compare that number to Iraq or even Bosnian US inflicted civilian casualties in the first week of our involvements during those conflicts. They clearly are not targeting civilians intentionally.

Where did you get the 250,000 civilian casualties number?
As of January 17,2023 the official number from the Ukrainian government is just over 9000 total per Ukrainian presidential aide Andriy Yermak at Davos for WEF(yes today*side note he was there with First Lady of Ukraine Olena Zelenska,who spoke right after he did).

Russia’s war in Ukraine has killed ‘more than 9,000 civilians’ ​

Presidential aide announces grim toll at the WEF in Davos as Ukraine’s first lady appeals for support.

www.aljazeera.com

Peter Zaihan said so on Joe Rogan it’s over in you tube. He said 100,000 Russians have been killed. Joe asked how many Ukraine soldiers have died and Peter said about 1/3 if that but if you include civilians it’s 250,000 and probably more. If you go back one page I stated it was Peter Zaihan.

 

[DragonGunner]

I just googled and last year reports of what Peter said backs up what he said. Now all of a sudden the number of Russians killed is same but civilian casualties went from hundreds of thousands down to 7000….. ? And number of Ukraine soldiers have dropped also…..? I believe this is now all propaganda in Ukraine side to show they haven’t lost hardly anyone and still have more than they have. How do numbers get smudged that bad in just a few short months.

 

[smokingman]

Peter Zaihan said so on Joe Rogan it’s over in you tube. He said 100,000 Russians have been killed. Joe asked how many Ukraine soldiers have died and Peter said about 1/3 if that but if you include civilians it’s 250,000 and probably more. If you go back one page I stated it was Peter Zaihan.

The same Peter Zaihan that thinks capitalism is a disease and ponzi scheme? The same Peter Zaihan who thinks the pope "can elaborate on that doctrine to affirm the intrinsic dignity of LGTBQI persons".
So where did he get this number? Just because he says it does not make it true.

I have read the OSCE reports. I have looked at red cross statistics. We have the Ukrainian government telling the entire world it is around 9k dead civilians(On 1/17/2023). All sources that I have read agree with those numbers. It is around 9k civilian casualties.

Now military casualties is another matter altogether.
The figures vary greatly,and in a time of war that is to be expected. Ukraine does not list those numbers publicly often,and when they do it is usually for a limited area of operations during a set time period. Russia does the same. DPR does release some numbers on their losses,but most of the west ignores those and just counts them as Russian.

Point being 9k dead civilians after almost a year of war is very low. It does not even match the 14k dead civilians from 2014-2022 in Donetsk,mostly from shelling civilians by the Ukrainian goverment(as reported by OSCE and the US based Time magazine,the article is posted earlier in this thread,by me). If Russia was targeting civilians that number would be much much higher.

 

[smokingman]

I just googled and last year reports of what Peter said backs up what he said. Now all of a sudden the number of Russians killed is same but civilian casualties went from hundreds of thousands down to 7000….. ? And number of Ukraine soldiers have dropped also…..? I believe this is now all propaganda in Ukraine side to show they haven’t lost hardly anyone and still have more than they have. How do numbers get smudged that bad in just a few short months.

Certainly possible. If it is they have the OSCE(UN observers) and Red cross to back up the propaganda. The red cross sure I would believe could be used to fudge numbers,but the OSCE is more analytical and has observers from 19 countries currently in Ukraine. Much tougher to get them all to go along(of course only those who publish the reports actually matter so not impossible).

 

[DragonGunner]

I just learn of Zaihan. He has some interesting views on Russia and China and their future. Haven’t looked into the things you mentioned but will be.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

KBR was sold by Halliburton . Is WW3 getting ready to kick off?

 

[1DOWN4UP]

KBR | Delivering Solutions, Changing the World

www.kbr.com

 

[DadSmith]

Russia produces first set of Poseidon super torpedoes - TASS

Russia has produced the first set of Poseidon nuclear capable super torpedoes that are being developed for deployment on the Belgorod nuclear submarine, TASS reported on Monday, citing an unidentified defence source.

www.reuters.com

 

[actaeon277]

Russia produces first set of Poseidon super torpedoes - TASS

Russia has produced the first set of Poseidon nuclear capable super torpedoes that are being developed for deployment on the Belgorod nuclear submarine, TASS reported on Monday, citing an unidentified defence source.

www.reuters.com

Produced?

Are they reliable.. do they work as advertised.. can the produce more than a few.. can they maintain them.. etc

Life is not sci-fi.
Producing a weapon system doesn't just 'happen'.
The concept needs to be proven.
Reliable.
Producible
Maintainable
Supply chain in place
Training to operate
Training to maintain
Training to plan operations
etc
etc
etc

 

[Wolfhound]

Produced?

Are they reliable.. do they work as advertised.. can the produce more than a few.. can they maintain them.. etc

Life is not sci-fi.
Producing a weapon system doesn't just 'happen'.
The concept needs to be proven.
Reliable.
Producible
Maintainable
Supply chain in place
Training to operate
Training to maintain
Training to plan operations
etc
etc
etc

The T-14 Armata Tank is a good comparison. It's been around since 2015 but Russia has yet to deploy one or mass produce them. Rumors are they break down and have to be hauled off from military parades.

T-14 Armata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[indyartisan]

Wonder how many in Berlin remember what happened the last time they sent tanks to Ukraine.

 

[Route 45]

Wonder how many in Berlin remember what happened the last time they sent tanks to Ukraine.

Hopefully they also remember what happened the last time a dictator who invades his neighors was appeased.

 

[oze]

Russia produces first set of Poseidon super torpedoes - TASS

Russia has produced the first set of Poseidon nuclear capable super torpedoes that are being developed for deployment on the Belgorod nuclear submarine, TASS reported on Monday, citing an unidentified defence source.

www.reuters.com

Who knows, but a story from Reuters quoting Tass probably won't be keeping me up at night. To quote a more reliable source:

 

[Wolfhound]

 

[BugI02]

9000 civilians in almost a year of fighting. That is not intentionally killing civilians.

Ukraine says mass burial sites found in retaken town of Lyman

A Ukrainian official said two sites were found near Lyman, with one estimated to hold 200 dead.

www.bbc.com

Ukraine says two mass burial sites have been found in the recently-recaptured eastern town of Lyman, after Russia retreated.

The Ukrainian governor of the Donetsk region, Pavlo Kyrylenko, said one burial site had about 200 individual graves containing civilian bodies.

It was unclear how many bodies the second site held, but it may contain both soldiers and civilians, he said.

The time and cause of death for the deceased is yet to be determined.

Mr Zelensky said that mass graves were found this spring in Bucha, near the capital Kyiv, and also near Mariupol - the key south-eastern Ukrainian port now occupied by Russia since its invasion of Ukraine in February.

Investigators and journalists found what appeared to be evidence of the deliberate killing of civilians in Bucha and other nearby areas.

Ukrainian forces said they found mass graves and evidence that civilians had been killed after their feet and hands were bound.

 

[BigMoose]

Ukraine says mass burial sites found in retaken town of Lyman

A Ukrainian official said two sites were found near Lyman, with one estimated to hold 200 dead.

www.bbc.com

War sucks, and there is a lot of everyone who has passed away over there.

 

[BigMoose]

War wise, the meatgrinder pretty much static fighting continues.

Russia continues to toss whoever they can find against Ukraine in the east in Donestsk to get a yard or so a day.

On the southern front, Russia continues to try and fortify as much as they can, in particularly Russian seems to think Ukraine will come for Zaporizhia next.

In short, its a bloody mess. A meatgrinder that just eats people, weapons and supplies.

Institute for the Study of War

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s speech commemorating the Soviet forces’ breaking of the siege of Leningrad illustrated that he remains uncertain about his ability to significantly shape the Russian information space. Putin used his January 18 speech to

www.understandingwar.org

 

[BigMoose]

The Panzers are coming to face the Russian tanks. Something has not happened since WW2

Meanwhile the german vehicles already there, are quite effective.