Milsurp Discussion Lounge

[Mongo59]

I'm to lazy to get mine out for pictures...

 

[TheJoker]

Nice collection and presentation. These days the bayonets cost as much as you paid for the rifles. Is that a homemade rack, or did you buy it somewhere?

Very true about the bayonets. Back around 2005, the Carcano rifle cost me $185 and that fancy folding bayonet was $325.

A good friend built that rack in exchange for two box seats for Ozzfest. He is going to make another for US WWII rifles only. My M1 collection sort of got out of hand over the last 5 years. Right now, I can either display my M1s or I can display my other mil surps. I'd like to display both.

 

[92FSTech]

Great thread!

My milsurp addiction started slow. I'm more of a shooter than a collector, but I'd always wanted an M1 Garand, and when I joined a local club that was affiliated with the CMP I went ahead and ordered a Special Rack grade. The rifle I got was amazing, and resulted in each of my brothers ordering one as well. A year or so later I decided I needed another so I put in for a service grade, and received another very nice rifle that shoots just as well as my special rack.

Shortly after that, a local auction had an SMLE that my teenage son thought was cool, so I bid on it and won. We started shooting them quite a bit and loading for them, and decided that we needed to get on buying some more stuff because they aren't making anymore, and it won't always be available.

I got my C&R last year, and we have since added a sporterized Krag, a Remington 03A3, Eddystone 1917, Swedish M96/38, and most recently another CMP Garand (rack grade this time) for my son. The new Garand is a little rougher than the other two, but it shoots ok (target in the photo was his first full clip at 100...he did better on subsequent attempts). Somebody varnished the stock, so we just got done stripping that and applying the first coat of BLO. It cleaned up pretty decent and should look better when it is done. It's a 3million serial# SA receiver from January 1945, with a reparked receiver, 1955 SA barrel, and mostly other SA parts with the exception of the rear sight knob which is IHC. The op rod was painted black at some point, but I don't think the CMP did that as it's flaked off a bit and looks like it's been on there a while. Likely whatever foreign military had it attempted to refinish it at some point in thier own way...just part of the unique history of that particular gun.






Most of my rifles were sporterized to some extent and I've had to piece them back together. None of them are collector grade. They all shoot pretty decent, though, and even the Krag's really rough bore can print under 3" at 100 yards with my low velocity cast bullet handloads. We've had a good time learning about the history, what it takes to properly operate the guns, and some of the challenges in loading for them (freaking British and their ridiculous corrosive, rimmed, cordite-driven, oversized .30 caliber bullet .303 that they stuck with for about 50 years too long!). I wish I'd gotten into these back in my college days when you could pick stuff up incredibly cheap, but I have to remind myself that I was broke back then, and better late than never.

 

[kaveman]

I'm to lazy to get mine out for pictures...

Same here, and there have been too many, and so many have departed. I could talk about an arsenal fresh Soviet Mosin that I got from Century that came in with the Russian data tag hanging from a sling swivel,.....for $20. But it's gone. I ordered 40 Swedish Mausers from SOG for $49.50 each, all but the best two are also gone. A dozen beautiful Russian SKSs for under $50 apiece,......all gone.

I remember placing a 'test' order with Century for a couple of "U Fix-Um" .308 Mauser 98's and getting two really nice rifles except for the broken buttstocks. Instantly ordered ten more and I was furious with the crap they sent me. These were nothing but barrelled actions with bolts and nice bores,......and I was upset for being ripped off,......at ten dollars apiece. Times have sure changed.

 

[kaveman]

So guess what I did with those ten $10 barrelled actions. I was an SOT at the time and had a good buddy who was a type2 manufacturer, so I sent him the ten 'rifles' and had him chop the barrels to about 10" and register them as SBRs. Then he sent them back to me on form3s and I had ten Mauser SBRs for a hundred dollars. I gave most of them away to other dealers(again on form3)just to show some outbounds on my license,....no other reason. Still have three of them around here somewhere. Have never done a thing with them.

And here's another gunshow story and a crappy picture. I don't remember if it was South Bend or one of the rare LaPorte shows, but I caught a guy walking around trying to sell a sporterized Lee Enfield. It looked really nice except it was missing the ebony f/e tip. Guy wanted $125 for that one too so I paid it. Turns out it wasn't a sporterized military rifle at all. It was a commercial BSA sporter. Replaced the missing tip and it's one of my prized possessions,.......not strictly a milsurp but a C&R from the 1920's-1930's most likely. Not marked "Lee Speed" so it was produced after the Speed patent ran out.

All of my best rifles seem to cost $125.

 

[TheJoker]

I always thought the Carcano 1938 Short Rifle was interesting. It was originally chambered in 7.35x51; but. Italy rushed into WWII before the transition from 6.5x51. So, they switched back to the original, WWII chambering. Most of the 7.35 rifles were given to Finland where they weren't really appreciated. The rifle pictured was one of the Finnish [SA] marked.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I always thought the Carcano 1938 Short Rifle was interesting. It was originally chambered in 7.35x51; but. Italy rushed into WWII before the transition from 6.5x51. So, they switched back to the original, WWII chambering. Most of the 7.35 rifles were given to Finland where they weren't really appreciated. The rifle pictured was one of the Finnish [SA] marked.

Love that bayonet! They also got rechambered to 8mm Mauser too. Mine's not nearly as nice as yours, but it will get your attention when you fire it!

 

[red_zr24x4]

To lazy to get them out and take pictures.
2 M1 Garands
1 SKS
1 Swedish pistol that was rechambered from 9mm short to 380. It's made by Husqvarna, copy of a Browning 1907(if I remember correctly)

 

[Wolfhound]

Here’s a few of mine. Top to bottom
French Berthier long rifle
Finnish M27
Steyr 8x56 long rifle
2x 03 Springfields
Enfield No 4 Mk 1

 

[rob63]

I will add another of my favorites, my GEW98.

I traded for it with another INGO member. It is matching except for the bolt, and the bolt was renumbered to match the rifle by a German armorer. The butt plate has markings indicating it went through the German depot system three times , so it certainly was well used in service. The best part being that it still has the unit identification disk showing that it belonged to the 37th Reserve Regiment. The first sustained combat that the unit had was while fighting for Fort Vaux at the Battle of Verdun, a place I visited a few years ago. This one means a lot to me.

 

[92FSTech]

What do you guys know about Trapdoor Springfields? I'm thinking that may be my next purchase, but I don't feel like I'm knowledgeable enough about them at this point to know what to look for. I have a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, and reload for it (mostly to trapdoor levels, using trailboss) so I'm familiar with the cartridge, but not the rifle itself.

My budget is not huge, so I'd be looking to find something well-used, but still a shooter. I'd even be ok with a decent reproduction or slightly bubba'd sporter if such a thing exists. Investment and collectability are not my goal...I just want to shoot it and learn about the design. What options are out there, and what sort of things do I need to look for to make sure the gun is sound and safe to shoot?

 

[MongooseLaw]

Nothing like old steel and wood! rob63 I am definitely jealous of that 1886/93 Lebel and that G98, absolutely beautiful...exactly what I need to complete my "major powers" WW1 collection

Here's an interesting WW1 dated M91, the "godzilla" carving is supposedly a Bulgarian Lion crest crudely etched by bored conscripts....at least that's one of the stories.

Next is one of my favorites, antique receiver SIG barreled M24 "Lotta" rifle serial number 40 with original matching stock, I also have full Civil Guard rifle and guardsman records, very cool to get some history on the rifle itself and the soldier who carried it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Not as old as some of the rifles in this thread, but this is one of my favorites. Egyptian FN49, chambered in 8mm Mauser. Sometimes referred to as the "poor man's M1A", although with the way prices have gone up lately, there's not as much difference between the two as there once was.

They were also chambered in 7x57, 308 and 30-06, depending on the country that ordered them.

 

[rob63]

Nothing like old steel and wood! rob63 I am definitely jealous of that 1886/93 Lebel and that G98, absolutely beautiful...exactly what I need to complete my "major powers" WW1 collection

Here's an interesting WW1 dated M91, the "godzilla" carving is supposedly a Bulgarian Lion crest crudely etched by bored conscripts....at least that's one of the stories.

Next is one of my favorites, antique receiver SIG barreled M24 "Lotta" rifle serial number 40 with original matching stock, I also have full Civil Guard rifle and guardsman records, very cool to get some history on the rifle itself and the soldier who carried it.

I really like that "Godzilla" carving! Fascinating.

I have also been working on a complete WWI collection. The problem with WWI, as I am sure you are aware, is figuring out where to draw a line? Unfortunately, for me, I have sold a number of rifles over the years that would fit into a WWI collection that are now somewhat expensive to replace.

I have the Lebel, but no longer have a Berthier. What do you think? Can a WWI collection be complete without a Berthier? How do you figure out where to stop?

Have you seen the videos on C&Rsenal? Othias goes into so much detail.

 

[Vanderbilt]

What do you guys know about Trapdoor Springfields? I'm thinking that may be my next purchase, but I don't feel like I'm knowledgeable enough about them at this point to know what to look for. I have a Marlin 1895 in .45-70, and reload for it (mostly to trapdoor levels, using trailboss) so I'm familiar with the cartridge, but not the rifle itself.

My budget is not huge, so I'd be looking to find something well-used, but still a shooter. I'd even be ok with a decent reproduction or slightly bubba'd sporter if such a thing exists. Investment and collectability are not my goal...I just want to shoot it and learn about the design. What options are out there, and what sort of things do I need to look for to make sure the gun is sound and safe to shoot?

....giving you good advise on one of these antiques is a tough one. Make sure the stock is solid. Look closely at the chamber, look for damage or cracks. Make sure the lock functions as it should. If you're really unsure, treat it like buying a used vehicle. Bring along a buddy to look at it with you. Short of arranging to have a gunsmith look at it, which may not be possible until you purchase it. If you can get your hands on a copy of this book. There's a wee bit of information that may help you.

 

[92FSTech]

My son and I decided to get out and put some milage on the milsurps yesterday. We shot a steel silhouette and an 8" plate from 200 yards. It was a good day.

From Left to Right:



1. Sporterized 1898 Krag. I got this one off gunbroker, and it's pretty rough. Bore is dark but still has pronounced rifling. The barrel has been shortened, and it has a 1903 front sight installed. It was missing the front and top wood, so I made a handguard out of a piece of walnut. It does still have the original 1901-style rear sight, which is really a fantasic sight for the time period. I load powdercoated cast bullets for this one and shoot them over a moderate charge of Unique for a soft-shooting target load for this 120 year-old rifle. I was able to hit the silhouette consistently and scored a few hits on the 8" plate as well. The side-loading magazine is fun, and the action is smooth as butter. Gotta love a Krag.


2. CMP "Special Rack" grade M1 Garand. I've installed national match sights on this one, and with it's new criterion barrel, it's a pretty good shooter. No problems hitting the 8" plate.


3. Enfield No 1 Mk III* SMLE. I load cast bullets for this one as well...basically the same load as the Krag. We had to elevate the rear sight to almost the 800 yard setting to get hits, but once we had it dialed in it was remarkably easy even with the sort of mediocre post/notch setup on this rifle. The action is slick and easy to use....this gun had the makings of an excellent rifle, if just for a few issues: I'm not a huge fan of the .303...it was ok in the late 1800s, but IMO the rimmed case is a handicap to the rifle, and the Brits should have done away with it long before WW1. The split stock design is also a weak point, and this one has cracked just forward of the wrist band. Correct those two issues, lose the rear notch for an aperture sight, and you could have a truly excellent rifle.


4. Swedish M96/38 Mauser: This thing is amazing. Love the 6.5 cartridge, which IMO was way ahead of it's time. The build quality is supurb, with attention to detail and exceptional crafstmanship in even the smallest parts. Our example has a slightly dinged up stock but fantastic metal. My only compliant is the wide front sight post fills the small notch on the rear sight making it hard to get a good sight picture, handicapping an otherwise exceptionally accurate rifle. The design of the stock is also different, and maybe I'm just doing it wrong. I like to get my cheek-weld close up to the receiver, which is probably a holdover from my AR training to put nose to charging handle. If you do that with this gun, that sharp edge of the stock will slam you in the cheekbone every time you pull the trigger. You have to keep your head back unnnaturally far to avoid this. We were still able to hit the silhouete easily, but it was harder to get a precise sight picture on the smaller plate.


5. Eddystone Model 1917: This was another sporter that I rescued. The top wood isn't a perfect match, but at least it has the original sights and the rear ears haven't been ground off. People rave about this rifle, and frankly, I'm not seeing it. It's big and heavy. Mine has a sort of sticky bolt, and it takes a lot of force to work the action. You really have to slam it open and closed. The aperture sights are definitely better than the notch and posts of its contemporaries, but the aperture is huge and the front sight is so small and far forward that it's almost too small in your field of view to be useful. The trigger is long, stacky, and heavy. Nevertheless, it's an excellent gun and I could still make hits on both targets once I got the hold figured out. It's a capable gun, but I feel like it and I just aren't on the same page and I have to fight it every step of the way to get results.


6. M16A3 Clone: Not really a milsurp, just a cheap AR build to sort of replicate the real thing...it's not a perfect copy but close enough to get the idea. Not much to say about this one...it's an AR. It shoots .223, which is cheap and plentiful, and has quality iron sights which are easy to hit with. We shot this one last, which was good, becasue I ended up dumping a 10 round mag pretty rapidly into the steel silhouette, which got it swinging and the target stand fell over.


7. CMP Rack Grade M1 Garand: This one is a recent acqusition, and I talked about it some earlier in this thread. SA receiver from Jan 1945, and an SA barrel from 1955 that the CMP didn't gauge. It has some pitting, the op-rod is painted black, the handguards both have small cracks, and the stock was laquered when we got it (I stripped it and applied BLO, which made it better). It still shot just fine, though, and we were able to hit both targets without much effort.


8. Remington 03A3: This is MY Rifle. I absolutely love this gun. It was another de-sporterization project, and when purchased it was in an ill-fitting Bishop stock, had some kind of Redfield hooded front sight on it, and had a huge dent in the side of the barel that I couldn't see in the auction photos (now covered by the handguards). It's an original 1943 2-groove barrel, and when I saw that dent I figured it was done for, but decided to give it a try anyway. I sourced stock wood and metal from Sarco, and ended up with a really cool old stock that needed a bunch of cleanup but had a ton of character including some interesting rack numbers stamped on the right side. I got the front sight off and replaced it with a proper 03A3 front sight (had to make my own blade out of a piece of hacksaw blade to get it zeroed properly), and she shoots like a dream. It was dead on right out of the bag, and I was hitting the 8" plate on the swing consistently, which is something I couldn't do with any of the other rifles. That thin front sight blade and rear aperture are just the perfect combo, and the weight and balance of the gun make it very handy as well. The action is smooth, the trigger is excellent, and the accuracy is undeniable. I know the older 1903s have a nicer finish and higher-quality machining and are more collectible, but personally I'll take the A3. Unlike the 1917, this gun feels like it's working with you...almost an extension of you...when you're shooting it. I love this gun.

 

[jwamplerusa]

My M1 at the spring Pro-Tec shoot.

A present from SWMBO'd, it is a restoration with a Criterion barrel on an SA '45 receiver. Currently has an Ultimac scout scope rail and a cheap LER scope, which makes it far more fun to shoot with my eyes.

 

[55fairlane]

My M1 at the spring Pro-Tec shoot.

A present from SWMBO'd, it is a restoration with a Criterion barrel on an SA '45 receiver. Currently has an Ultimac scout scope rail and a cheap LER scope, which makes it far more fun to shoot with my eyes.



View attachment 219964

Not to bust your bubble, but your sling is on backwards.....nice rifle, mine will shoot 600 yards thru the irons......get off that bench, ditch that optic , sling up and join us forva match or two.....

 

[55fairlane]

My son and I decided to get out and put some milage on the milsurps yesterday. We shot a steel silhouette and an 8" plate from 200 yards. It was a good day.

From Left to Right:



1. Sporterized 1898 Krag. I got this one off gunbroker, and it's pretty rough. Bore is dark but still has pronounced rifling. The barrel has been shortened, and it has a 1903 front sight installed. It was missing the front and top wood, so I made a handguard out of a piece of walnut. It does still have the original 1901-style rear sight, which is really a fantasic sight for the time period. I load powdercoated cast bullets for this one and shoot them over a moderate charge of Unique for a soft-shooting target load for this 120 year-old rifle. I was able to hit the silhouette consistently and scored a few hits on the 8" plate as well. The side-loading magazine is fun, and the action is smooth as butter. Gotta love a Krag.


2. CMP "Special Rack" grade M1 Garand. I've installed national match sights on this one, and with it's new criterion barrel, it's a pretty good shooter. No problems hitting the 8" plate.


3. Enfield No 1 Mk III* SMLE. I load cast bullets for this one as well...basically the same load as the Krag. We had to elevate the rear sight to almost the 800 yard setting to get hits, but once we had it dialed in it was remarkably easy even with the sort of mediocre post/notch setup on this rifle. The action is slick and easy to use....this gun had the makings of an excellent rifle, if just for a few issues: I'm not a huge fan of the .303...it was ok in the late 1800s, but IMO the rimmed case is a handicap to the rifle, and the Brits should have done away with it long before WW1. The split stock design is also a weak point, and this one has cracked just forward of the wrist band. Correct those two issues, lose the rear notch for an aperture sight, and you could have a truly excellent rifle.


4. Swedish M96/38 Mauser: This thing is amazing. Love the 6.5 cartridge, which IMO was way ahead of it's time. The build quality is supurb, with attention to detail and exceptional crafstmanship in even the smallest parts. Our example has a slightly dinged up stock but fantastic metal. My only compliant is the wide front sight post fills the small notch on the rear sight making it hard to get a good sight picture, handicapping an otherwise exceptionally accurate rifle. The design of the stock is also different, and maybe I'm just doing it wrong. I like to get my cheek-weld close up to the receiver, which is probably a holdover from my AR training to put nose to charging handle. If you do that with this gun, that sharp edge of the stock will slam you in the cheekbone every time you pull the trigger. You have to keep your head back unnnaturally far to avoid this. We were still able to hit the silhouete easily, but it was harder to get a precise sight picture on the smaller plate.


5. Eddystone Model 1917: This was another sporter that I rescued. The top wood isn't a perfect match, but at least it has the original sights and the rear ears haven't been ground off. People rave about this rifle, and frankly, I'm not seeing it. It's big and heavy. Mine has a sort of sticky bolt, and it takes a lot of force to work the action. You really have to slam it open and closed. The aperture sights are definitely better than the notch and posts of its contemporaries, but the aperture is huge and the front sight is so small and far forward that it's almost too small in your field of view to be useful. The trigger is long, stacky, and heavy. Nevertheless, it's an excellent gun and I could still make hits on both targets once I got the hold figured out. It's a capable gun, but I feel like it and I just aren't on the same page and I have to fight it every step of the way to get results.


6. M16A3 Clone: Not really a milsurp, just a cheap AR build to sort of replicate the real thing...it's not a perfect copy but close enough to get the idea. Not much to say about this one...it's an AR. It shoots .223, which is cheap and plentiful, and has quality iron sights which are easy to hit with. We shot this one last, which was good, becasue I ended up dumping a 10 round mag pretty rapidly into the steel silhouette, which got it swinging and the target stand fell over.


7. CMP Rack Grade M1 Garand: This one is a recent acqusition, and I talked about it some earlier in this thread. SA receiver from Jan 1945, and an SA barrel from 1955 that the CMP didn't gauge. It has some pitting, the op-rod is painted black, the handguards both have small cracks, and the stock was laquered when we got it (I stripped it and applied BLO, which made it better). It still shot just fine, though, and we were able to hit both targets without much effort.


8. Remington 03A3: This is MY Rifle. I absolutely love this gun. It was another de-sporterization project, and when purchased it was in an ill-fitting Bishop stock, had some kind of Redfield hooded front sight on it, and had a huge dent in the side of the barel that I couldn't see in the auction photos (now covered by the handguards). It's an original 1943 2-groove barrel, and when I saw that dent I figured it was done for, but decided to give it a try anyway. I sourced stock wood and metal from Sarco, and ended up with a really cool old stock that needed a bunch of cleanup but had a ton of character including some interesting rack numbers stamped on the right side. I got the front sight off and replaced it with a proper 03A3 front sight (had to make my own blade out of a piece of hacksaw blade to get it zeroed properly), and she shoots like a dream. It was dead on right out of the bag, and I was hitting the 8" plate on the swing consistently, which is something I couldn't do with any of the other rifles. That thin front sight blade and rear aperture are just the perfect combo, and the weight and balance of the gun make it very handy as well. The action is smooth, the trigger is excellent, and the accuracy is undeniable. I know the older 1903s have a nicer finish and higher-quality machining and are more collectible, but personally I'll take the A3. Unlike the 1917, this gun feels like it's working with you...almost an extension of you...when you're shooting it. I love this gun.

Nice rifles....slings are on backwards....get off that bench , learn to sling shoot and join us for a match or two

 

[92FSTech]

Nice rifles....slings are on backwards....get off that bench , learn to sling shoot and join us for a match or two

Which one is backwards? I'm pretty sure the Garand is correct, I did a good deal of research before installing that one. Maybe my source was wrong, though. I know the Enfield is correct. The krag sling isn't a 1907 sling, it's the older Krag sling which to my reading was not designed to be used as a shooting aid. It was no fun to put on, I can tell you that. The Swede...who knows about that crazy thing, it could well be backwards. I found one set of instructions on some obscure forum on how to install it.

As to sling shooting, I've not done any with the national match style sling, just 2 or 3 point hasty slings on the AR. Most of our training is dynamic and there's not time to get strapped in and out of a competition style sling. I do quite a bit of unsupported shooting that way, and recently even set up a .22 with irons so I can get more practice in. This day was just about having fun with my kid playing with old rifles, not serious marksmanship training.

I have had the opportunity to have a few conversations with some guys at the club about their competition sling setups, have watched some videos, and even bought Jim Owens's book, but I think it's going to take some hands on instruction and some serious practice for me to master it.