The President Trump Immigration Thread

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  • SheepDog4Life

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    interesting.....I didn't use 100% effective in my post at all.

    Every wall they put up gets defeated....but I guess we can turn into liberals and say...."If it saves just one life!"

    Come up with something that dramatically works. Seismic sensors, infrared drone patrols etc...then let's have a real conversation!

    Your post clearly states that any breach of a wall is equivalent to "if it saves one life." Ipso facto only 100% would suffice... and your supporting sentences reinforce.

    I will meet halfway. At whatever level a mask becomes scientifically proven to be beneficial. Design a wall with an equivalent scientific proven effective rate. The wall argument presented here seems to be different than the mask argument, almost opposite even.

    I've not posted on masks... but since you raise the question, wearing a 50 cent mask that might prevent me from being infected, and more importantly, prevent me from spreading a virus that could be deadly to my elderly loved ones, or strangers, seems like a small act of individual citizenship versus a multi-billion dollar national policy. Apples and oranges in costs, benefits and the ability for me as a individual to implement.

    But since you raise it, the number in the highly touted N95 masks stands for 95%. The wall was designed for similar effectiveness and the results (apprehension decreases) seem to prove the design.

    As to trusting a *.gov website...nah. Not unless cdc.gov also suddenly became a valid source to prove an argument or is it exactly the same? So hard to tell these days. :)

    Hmmm... I would call that a failure to observe the times we live in. While they are both .GOV, if one were to misstate the facts, the effectiveness of the wall, the national media would descend like a swarm of locusts... while if the other were to misstate the facts, whether masks have any utility at all, the national media parrots the obvious lie incessantly for months.
     

    foszoe

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    We understand my posts completely different.

    I do have one question though. If the national media published a story on the effectiveness of the wall, would anyone that supports the wall believe it? My answer to that is no.

    The money side, is where my shopping question came from.

    Early in life, if something cost $5, I really had to think about it. Masks? Well they are cheap, so I don't have to think a lot about that one, unless I want to get political.

    Later that moved to $20, $50. Now it stands at about $200. $200-$500 I do a lot more comparison shopping and the closer I get to $1000, the more I get into the "cry once" way of thinking. So if I put up a wall around my garden of chicken wire that costs $199, and it fails to stop the rodents, I don't get TOO upset about the effectiveness of the fence. However, if I spend $1500 and build it out of something. I expect a much higher rate of effectiveness.

    As a taxpayer, I am the same way. I would like to know how effective this wall is going to be, and I would like to know I won't have to build it again after people learn how to defeat it in a year. It doesn't have to be 100% effective. It does however, need to demonstrate a base level of effectiveness.

    Throwing up a physical wall is pandering to the base. Before the wall talk, there was a lot of talk about tunnels. How does a wall help with that?

    So back to what I said, some seismic detectors, drones, and some rapid response forces to intercept. That sounds more like it would accomplish the objective, which is not to build a wall, but to deter illegal entrance to the country. I think the best a wall can do is act as a barrier to allow the detectors, drones and rapid response teams to move to intercept.

    Maybe something other than detectors, drones, and RRF would work too. I am certain that simply throwing up a wall won't do a whole lot. Maybe they ARE doing more than throwing up a wall and you can shed light on it. I am by no means an expert on the border.


    Your post clearly states that any breach of a wall is equivalent to "if it saves one life." Ipso facto only 100% would suffice... and your supporting sentences reinforce.



    I've not posted on masks... but since you raise the question, wearing a 50 cent mask that might prevent me from being infected, and more importantly, prevent me from spreading a virus that could be deadly to my elderly loved ones, or strangers, seems like a small act of individual citizenship versus a multi-billion dollar national policy. Apples and oranges in costs, benefits and the ability for me as a individual to implement.

    But since you raise it, the number in the highly touted N95 masks stands for 95%. The wall was designed for similar effectiveness and the results (apprehension decreases) seem to prove the design.



    Hmmm... I would call that a failure to observe the times we live in. While they are both .GOV, if one were to misstate the facts, the effectiveness of the wall, the national media would descend like a swarm of locusts... while if the other were to misstate the facts, whether masks have any utility at all, the national media parrots the obvious lie incessantly for months.
     

    nonobaddog

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    If the national media published a story on the effectiveness of the wall, would anyone that supports the wall believe it? My answer to that is no.

    If the national media published a story on damn near anything, should any smart person treat it with skepticism? My answer to that is yes.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    We understand my posts completely different.

    I do have one question though. If the national media published a story on the effectiveness of the wall, would anyone that supports the wall believe it? My answer to that is no.

    Blind faith "believe"? No! Almost all MSM has jettisoned all credibility to pander to the left or the right. I include Fox in there just as much as CNN/MSNBC. FoxNews proper is going full Breitbart. WaPo has flushed it's credentials down the toilet in pursuit of propaganda and the HuffPo crowd. NYT is half way there and continuing in the process of cancelling any remaining true journalists they have. WSJ and National Review are mostly credible most of the time, but approach everything from right of center. If you know of a left of center credible news source that still believes in journalism, let me know... I try to read from both angles and figure the truth is in between... currently, that "bracket" is very broad.

    As far as illegal border crossings, I am very confident that if the DHS was fudging the numbers, we would hear about it and there would be House hearings on it. Since there is nothing but crickets from the left, I'm pretty sure that the DHS numbers are fairly credible.

    The money side, is where my shopping question came from.

    Early in life, if something cost $5, I really had to think about it. Masks? Well they are cheap, so I don't have to think a lot about that one, unless I want to get political.

    Later that moved to $20, $50. Now it stands at about $200. $200-$500 I do a lot more comparison shopping and the closer I get to $1000, the more I get into the "cry once" way of thinking. So if I put up a wall around my garden of chicken wire that costs $199, and it fails to stop the rodents, I don't get TOO upset about the effectiveness of the fence. However, if I spend $1500 and build it out of something. I expect a much higher rate of effectiveness.

    As a taxpayer, I am the same way. I would like to know how effective this wall is going to be, and I would like to know I won't have to build it again after people learn how to defeat it in a year. It doesn't have to be 100% effective. It does however, need to demonstrate a base level of effectiveness.

    I agree. I do believe that the decrepit corrugated tin thing that could be scaled with a step ladder would only stop the physically handicapped whereas a 20-30 foot bollard wall would stop all but the most determined and resource-laden.

    18_1212_OPA_walls-work_01a.jpg


    18_1212_OPA_walls-work_01b.jpg


    It is expensive costing billions... but the benefit in savings of social programs more than pays for it, not to mention the effect of suppressed blue collar wages. An effective barrier plus an eVerify system that works AND work visa programs would go a long way to an effective immigration policy that also ends the exploitation of immigrant laborers. These people work hard and are needed, they shouldn't have to pay a cartel coyote $5,000 for permission to cross the border only to be hauled around in horse trailers by people who exploit them at low wages.

    Throwing up a physical wall is pandering to the base. Before the wall talk, there was a lot of talk about tunnels. How does a wall help with that?

    I'll disagree slightly with the pandering part... the usual political pandering would have been to add some half-a**ed something or another in new places that would have added to the "number" of miles of border with "wall". Instead the money was spent where the border patrol said the highest need was, which was replacing decades old "crap" in high traffic populous areas. This makes sense to me.

    Tunnels are only needed where there is an effective barrier... we've seen time and again that the decrepit corrugated tin sections can be pushed down by a fair sized crowd and thousands pour through.

    So back to what I said, some seismic detectors, drones, and some rapid response forces to intercept. That sounds more like it would accomplish the objective, which is not to build a wall, but to deter illegal entrance to the country. I think the best a wall can do is act as a barrier to allow the detectors, drones and rapid response teams to move to intercept.

    Maybe something other than detectors, drones, and RRF would work too. I am certain that simply throwing up a wall won't do a whole lot. Maybe they ARE doing more than throwing up a wall and you can shed light on it. I am by no means an expert on the border.

    I agree that putting up a real wall will not stop people and drugs completely. And that cartels will attempt tunneling, smuggling in trucks, in boats, etc. But those methods require more than just a dozen guys pushing down a corrugated panel. And if border patrol agents aren't busy chasing down thousands at a time, they can concentrate on finding tunnels, etc.

    As I said above, I think the other part of the equation is to turn off what attracts the illegal immigration and turn on (eVerify/work visas/etc) those things that enhance legal immigration, legal workers, etc.
     
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    nonobaddog

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    As far as illegal border crossings, I am very confident that if the DHS was fudging the numbers, we would hear about it and there would be House hearings on it. Since there is nothing but crickets from the left, I'm pretty sure that the DHS numbers are fairly credible.

    Consider that if the left feels there are more illegal aliens invading our country than reported, they might just shut up and be happy about it.
    And if the left feels there are fewer illegal aliens invading our country than reported they would have to admit the wall is working in order to raise a fuss about it.
     

    foszoe

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    I think most people here may only trust the obituaries in the local paper.

    If the national media published a story on damn near anything, should any smart person treat it with skepticism? My answer to that is yes.
     

    BugI02

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    We understand my posts completely different.

    I do have one question though. If the national media published a story on the effectiveness of the wall, would anyone that supports the wall believe it? My answer to that is no.

    The money side, is where my shopping question came from.

    Early in life, if something cost $5, I really had to think about it. Masks? Well they are cheap, so I don't have to think a lot about that one, unless I want to get political.

    Later that moved to $20, $50. Now it stands at about $200. $200-$500 I do a lot more comparison shopping and the closer I get to $1000, the more I get into the "cry once" way of thinking. So if I put up a wall around my garden of chicken wire that costs $199, and it fails to stop the rodents, I don't get TOO upset about the effectiveness of the fence. However, if I spend $1500 and build it out of something. I expect a much higher rate of effectiveness.

    As a taxpayer, I am the same way. I would like to know how effective this wall is going to be, and I would like to know I won't have to build it again after people learn how to defeat it in a year. It doesn't have to be 100% effective. It does however, need to demonstrate a base level of effectiveness.

    Throwing up a physical wall is pandering to the base. Before the wall talk, there was a lot of talk about tunnels. How does a wall help with that?

    So back to what I said, some seismic detectors, drones, and some rapid response forces to intercept. That sounds more like it would accomplish the objective, which is not to build a wall, but to deter illegal entrance to the country. I think the best a wall can do is act as a barrier to allow the detectors, drones and rapid response teams to move to intercept.

    Maybe something other than detectors, drones, and RRF would work too. I am certain that simply throwing up a wall won't do a whole lot. Maybe they ARE doing more than throwing up a wall and you can shed light on it. I am by no means an expert on the border.

    Perhaps we could learn from the Israelis, who by inspection are firm believers in border walls. The price they would pay if it was ineffective would not be solely in [STRIKE]dollars[/STRIKE] shekels, either.
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success - Victor Davis Hanson
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success

    Before 2002, during the various Palestinian intifadas, Israel suffered hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries from suicide bombers freely crossing from the West Bank and Gaza into Israel.
    In response, Israel planned a vast border barrier. The international community was outraged. The Israeli left called the idea nothing short of "apartheid."


    However, after the completion of the 440-mile border barrier — part concrete well, part wire fencing — suicide bombings and terrorist incursions into Israel declined to almost nil.
    The wall was not entirely responsible for enhanced Israeli security. But it freed up border manpower to patrol more vigorously. The barrier also was integrated with tougher laws against illegal immigration.
    The wall also brought strategic and political clarity.
     

    foszoe

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    Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am not against a wall, I am against ONLY a wall with the believe that a better wall will REALLY do something.
    If that is where we are then we can agree. Especially with the last part of your quote where the wall was a springboard to other deterrents. That's what I have been trying to say. Let's hear a detailed plan encompassing that.

    Perhaps we could learn from the Israelis, who by inspection are firm believers in border walls. The price they would pay if it was ineffective would not be solely in [STRIKE]dollars[/STRIKE] shekels, either.
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success - Victor Davis Hanson
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success
     

    JettaKnight

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    Perhaps we could learn from the Israelis, who by inspection are firm believers in border walls. The price they would pay if it was ineffective would not be solely in [STRIKE]dollars[/STRIKE] shekels, either.
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success - Victor Davis Hanson
    The Israel-US model has been a resounding success

    When we have a bunch of suicide bombers crossing the Arizona desert to blow up a mall in Phoenix, then I'll considered their situation and solution somewhat relevant to ours.
     

    Twangbanger

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    When we have a bunch of suicide bombers crossing the Arizona desert to blow up a mall in Phoenix, then I'll considered their situation and solution somewhat relevant to ours.

    Whether you think bombing and entering are morally equivalent, is irrelevant here. The question being addressed was, can it work?

    And this is basically showing the Libertarian poseurs that, no, the suicide-bombers didn't just defeat it with an 11-foot ladder.
     

    BugI02

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    Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am not against a wall, I am against ONLY a wall with the believe that a better wall will REALLY do something.
    If that is where we are then we can agree. Especially with the last part of your quote where the wall was a springboard to other deterrents. That's what I have been trying to say. Let's hear a detailed plan encompassing that.

    If the wall is to serve as a '... springboard to other deterrents', don't you have to build the wall first? Personally, I think the most important concept there is that the wall freed up manpower to patrol more aggressively. Whatever other technologies you wish to roll out, you first need the manpower to employ them
     

    BugI02

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    When we have a bunch of suicide bombers crossing the Arizona desert to blow up a mall in Phoenix, then I'll considered their situation and solution somewhat relevant to ours.

    Harm is harm, specifics of type or degree of harm is a red herring. The relevance is the Israelis wished to interdict bad actors from crossing their border into their country to do harm. It makes no meaningful difference what the specific harm is, the solution works the same way
     

    nonobaddog

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    CNN should do a poll to see what the potential illegal alien invaders think of a wall.
    I suspect their opinions would match many dumocraps. - too expensive, doesn't work, don't build it.
     

    NKBJ

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    This is just an op-ed piece from 2018 discussing the conspiracy to destroy the US, explaining why illegal immigration is a component of the plan. I thought it was fun because of how long the plan has been in operation yet its existence is denied by people who can't handle thinking about it.

    https://www.greensburgdailynews.com...cle_66bee93a-197c-5270-9c20-a51d5baeee98.html

    I was looking for info on President Trump working to get Mexico officials on board with prosecuting Calderon along with Barry Soetoro for "Fast And Furious". And this op-ed happened to pop up. Enjoy!
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Consider that if the left feels there are more illegal aliens invading our country than reported, they might just shut up and be happy about it.

    It is worth considering, but I do believe that if the new sections of "Trump" wall were ineffective, the MSM would fall all over themselves reporting it to stop any future sections being built... doubly so if it were ineffective and the DHS was "lying" about it.

    I've only seen the argument that very little "new" mileage is being walled.

    And if the left feels there are fewer illegal aliens invading our country than reported they would have to admit the wall is working in order to raise a fuss about it.
     

    foszoe

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    Wow this is like a rabbit hole...keep circling the pasture trying to get back.

    What's the definition of plagerism?

    LOL

    Harm is harm, specifics of type or degree of harm is a red herring. The relevance is the Israelis wished to interdict bad actors from crossing their border into their country to do harm. It makes no meaningful difference what the specific harm is, the solution works the same way
     

    nonobaddog

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    It is worth considering, but I do believe that if the new sections of "Trump" wall were ineffective, the MSM would fall all over themselves reporting it to stop any future sections being built... doubly so if it were ineffective and the DHS was "lying" about it.

    I've only seen the argument that very little "new" mileage is being walled.

    I wasn't thinking of the wall being ineffective. More like until the wall is completed there remain broad avenues open for the the illegal alien invaders. Kind of like building a dam and expecting it to perform its job before completion.
     
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